<div dir="ltr">Joseph, should we request an update core-aam spec to make this change? anything else?<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 8:17 PM, James Teh <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org" target="_blank">jamie@nvaccess.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">placeholder-text is fine with me.<br></div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 12:02 AM, Alexander Surkov <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:surkov.alexander@gmail.com" target="_blank">surkov.alexander@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Joanie suggested [1] to use 'placeholder-text' name to keep IAccessible2 and ATK closer. Are there objections?<br><br>Having, placeholder for IA2 and placeholder-text for ATK could make life harder for implementators, at least it definitely will do in Firefox case.<br><br>[1] <a href="https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1303429" target="_blank">https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/s<wbr>how_bug.cgi?id=1303429</a><br></div><div class="m_7105790049815680047HOEnZb"><div class="m_7105790049815680047h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 7:08 PM, James Teh <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org" target="_blank">jamie@nvaccess.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Visually, placeholder is certainly more like a value than a
name/description. However, arguably, it is semantically different to
a value in that it's more of a hint for the user as to what to enter
there. The reason for the name mapping was partially because it's a
nice fallback: having no label at all is probably an authoring
error, so it's reasonable to fall back to placeholder.<br>
<br>
I think I originally supported the description idea, but on further
reflection, I'm not so sure this isn't going to cause problems. It
just occurred to me that if an author sets title or
aria-describedby, that will get mapped to description, thus killing
the placeholder. So, we definitely need to expose the placeholder
attribute. However, once we have that (plus AT support), we then
always have to compare description with placeholder "just in case",
which is pretty ugly. Name is different because while no name is
probably authoring error, no description certainly isn't.<br>
<br>
In short, I'd like to propose that we:<br>
1. Expose the placeholder attribute;<br>
2. Keep the current behaviour of falling back to placeholder for
name as a last resort;<br>
3. When 1) happens, expose explicit-name:false;<br>
4. Don't ever fall back to placeholder for description.<br>
<br>
Jamie<div><div class="m_7105790049815680047m_6183753077472923574h5"><br>
<br>
<div class="m_7105790049815680047m_6183753077472923574m_7992236293429662488moz-cite-prefix">On 15/09/2016 2:38 AM, Alexander Surkov
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Jamie, do you have objections?<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Brett
Lewis <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:BLewis@vfo-group.com" target="_blank">BLewis@vfo-group.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I
have always thought of the placeholder more like a
value for the edit field rather than a name or
description.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">However,
I think the important thing is that we have a
mechanism that allows assistive technology to “know”
that the place holder is present and what the value
of the placeholder is.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Your
suggestions accomplish that.</span></p>
<span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Brett</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>Brett
Lewis</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>VFO</span></b><span>
</span><span>| Software
Engineer</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>11800 31<sup>st</sup>
Court North, St. Petersburg, FL 33716</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>T</span></b><span> <a href="tel:727-299-6270" value="+17272996270" target="_blank">727-299-6270</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><a href="mailto:blewis@vfo-group.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563c1">blewis@</span><span>vfo-group.com</span></a></span><span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><a href="http://www.vfo-group.com" target="_blank"><span>www.vfo-group.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0563c1"></span></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
</span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Alexander Surkov [mailto:<a href="mailto:surkov.alexander@gmail.com" target="_blank">surkov.alexander@gmail<wbr>.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 13, 2016 1:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Brett Lewis <<a href="mailto:BLewis@vfo-group.com" target="_blank">BLewis@vfo-group.com</a>>;
James Teh <<a href="mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org" target="_blank">jamie@nvaccess.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:Accessibility-ia2@lists.linux-foundation.org" target="_blank">Accessibility-ia2@lists.linux-<wbr>foundation.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Accessibility-ia2] HTML
placeholder attribute</span></p>
<div>
<div class="m_7105790049815680047m_6183753077472923574m_7992236293429662488h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi, Brett and
all.</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">There's some <span>discrepancy</span>
in the specs between UIA and IAccessible2
mappings. UIA column states [1] that HTML
placeholder is mapped to accessible name and
description, while IAccessible2 column says
HTML placeholder has same mapping as
aria-placeholder. aria-placeholder is exposed
it in AriaProperties [2] for UIA and as object
attribute for IAccessible2, the generic name
computation doesn't mention aria-placeholder
[3].<br>
<br>
Leaving aside the specs, in case of
IAccessible2 Firefox does similar things to
UIA. Iirc we agreed [4] to expose placeholder
as name/description, because it requires zero
adoption efforts from AT, and since nobody
claimed they need semantics of placeholder.<br>
<br>
If semantics loss is crucial for you, then I
think we could fix it by exposing HTML
placeholder this way:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">* name and description as
Firefox does (fix the spec to make it clear)</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">* expose placeholder object
attribute</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">* do not expose
explicit-name='true' object attribute if
placeholder was used as name</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">aria-placeholder may be
left with the current mapping. How does it
sound?</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
[1] <a href="https://w3c.github.io/aria/html-aam/html-aam.html" target="_blank">https://w3c.github.io/aria/htm<wbr>l-aam/html-aam.html</a><br>
[2] <a href="http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname-aam.html" target="_blank">http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mas<wbr>ter/accname-aam/accname-aam.ht<wbr>ml</a><br>
[3] <a href="https://w3c.github.io/aria/accname-aam/accname-aam.html" target="_blank">https://w3c.github.io/aria/acc<wbr>name-aam/accname-aam.html</a><br>
[4] <span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><a href="https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=545817" target="_blank">https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/s<wbr>how_bug.cgi?id=545817</a></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at
11:07 AM, Brett Lewis <<a href="mailto:BLewis@vfo-group.com" target="_blank">BLewis@vfo-group.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi
All:</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I
have been looking at how the HTML
placeholder attribute is supported by
IA2.
</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">According
to the HTML accessibility API mappings
at:
<a href="https://www.w3.org/TR/html-aam-1.0/" target="_blank">https://www.w3.org/TR/html-aam<wbr>-1.0/</a></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The
placeholder in HTML should be handled
just like the aria-placeholder.
</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">According
to the core api accessibility mappings
<a href="http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html" target="_blank">http://w3c.github.io/aria/core<wbr>-aam/core-aam.html</a></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The
aria-placeholder is mapped to an Ia2
object attribute of placeholder.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">So,
it sounds like the HTML placeholder
should be mapped to an IA2 object
attribute of placeholder.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Currently
Firefox seems to support the
placeholder as the name of the field
if there is no other name provided by
the page author (from
</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><a href="https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=545817" target="_blank">https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/s<wbr>how_bug.cgi?id=545817</a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">This
seems to contradict the description of
aria-placeholder from
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">the
WAI-ARIA) 1.1 spec at
<a href="http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-placeholder" target="_blank">
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mas<wbr>ter/aria/aria.html#aria-placeh<wbr>older</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Says:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">“[ARIA
1.1] Defines a short hint (a word or
short phrase) intended to aid the user
with data entry when the control has
no value. A hint could be a sample
value or a brief description of the
expected format.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Authors
should not use aria-placeholder</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">instead
of a label as their purposes are
different: The label indicates what
kind of information is expected. The
placeholder text is a hint about the</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">expected
value. See related aria-labelledby and
aria-label.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Authors
should present this hint to the user
by displaying the hint text at any
time the control's value is the empty
string. This includes cases where</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">the
control first receives focus, and when
users remove a previously-entered
value.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">NOTE</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">As
is the case with the related HTML
placeholder</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">attribute,
use of placeholder text as a
replacement for a displayed label can
reduce the accessibility and usability
of the control for a range of users</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">including
older users and users with cognitive,
mobility, fine motor skill or vision
impairments. While the hint given by
the control's label is shown</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">at
all times, the short hint given in the
placeholder attribute is only shown
before the user enters a value.
Furthermore, placeholder text may be
mistaken for a pre-filled value, and
as commonly implemented the default
color of the placeholder text provides
insufficient contrast and the lack of
a separate visible label reduces the
size of the hit region available for
setting focus on the control.”</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I
am suggesting that we all agree to
present the HTML placeholder just like
the aria-placeholder using the IA2
object attribute of placeholder?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">This
provides the most flexibility for
screenreaders to present the
placeholder information anyway they
see fit. Using the placeholder as the
name is not as flexible as the
screenreader cannot distinguish
between the placeholder and the label
in this case.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">What
does everyone think?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Thanks,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Brett</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>Brett Lewis</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>VFO</span></b><span>
</span><span>| Software Engineer</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>11800 31<sup>st</sup> Court North,
St. Petersburg, FL 33716</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>T</span></b><span>
<a href="tel:727-299-6270" target="_blank">727-299-6270</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><a href="mailto:blewis@vfo-group.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563c1">blewis@</span><span>vfo-group.com</span></a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><a href="http://www.vfo-group.com" target="_blank"><span>www.vfo-group.com</span></a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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<a href="mailto:Accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank">Accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxf<wbr>oundation.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2" target="_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org/mailman/listinfo/accessibi<wbr>lity-ia2</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div></div><span class="m_7105790049815680047m_6183753077472923574HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><pre class="m_7105790049815680047m_6183753077472923574m_7992236293429662488moz-signature" cols="72">--
James Teh
Executive Director, NV Access Limited
Ph <a href="tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306" value="+61731493306" target="_blank">+61 7 3149 3306</a>
<a class="m_7105790049815680047m_6183753077472923574m_7992236293429662488moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.nvaccess.org" target="_blank">www.nvaccess.org</a>
Facebook: <a class="m_7105790049815680047m_6183753077472923574m_7992236293429662488moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/NVAcce<wbr>ss</a>
Twitter: @NVAccess
SIP: <a class="m_7105790049815680047m_6183753077472923574m_7992236293429662488moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org" target="_blank">jamie@nvaccess.org</a>
</pre>
</font></span></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>