<div dir="ltr">Joseph, should we request an update core-aam spec to make this change? anything else?<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 8:17 PM, James Teh <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org" target="_blank">jamie@nvaccess.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">placeholder-text is fine with me.<br></div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 12:02 AM, Alexander Surkov <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:surkov.alexander@gmail.com" target="_blank">surkov.alexander@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Joanie suggested [1] to use &#39;placeholder-text&#39; name to keep IAccessible2 and ATK closer. Are there objections?<br><br>Having, placeholder for IA2 and placeholder-text for ATK could make life harder for implementators, at least it definitely will do in Firefox case.<br><br>[1] <a href="https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1303429" target="_blank">https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/s<wbr>how_bug.cgi?id=1303429</a><br></div><div class="m_7105790049815680047HOEnZb"><div class="m_7105790049815680047h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 7:08 PM, James Teh <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org" target="_blank">jamie@nvaccess.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    Visually, placeholder is certainly more like a value than a
    name/description. However, arguably, it is semantically different to
    a value in that it&#39;s more of a hint for the user as to what to enter
    there. The reason for the name mapping was partially because it&#39;s a
    nice fallback: having no label at all is probably an authoring
    error, so it&#39;s reasonable to fall back to placeholder.<br>
    <br>
    I think I originally supported the description idea, but on further
    reflection, I&#39;m not so sure this isn&#39;t going to cause problems. It
    just occurred to me that if an author sets title or
    aria-describedby, that will get mapped to description, thus killing
    the placeholder. So, we definitely need to expose the placeholder
    attribute. However, once we have that (plus AT support), we then
    always have to compare description with placeholder &quot;just in case&quot;,
    which is pretty ugly. Name is different because while no name is
    probably authoring error, no description certainly isn&#39;t.<br>
    <br>
    In short, I&#39;d like to propose that we:<br>
    1. Expose the placeholder attribute;<br>
    2. Keep the current behaviour of falling back to placeholder for
    name as a last resort;<br>
    3. When 1) happens, expose explicit-name:false;<br>
    4. Don&#39;t ever fall back to placeholder for description.<br>
    <br>
    Jamie<div><div class="m_7105790049815680047m_6183753077472923574h5"><br>
    <br>
    <div class="m_7105790049815680047m_6183753077472923574m_7992236293429662488moz-cite-prefix">On 15/09/2016 2:38 AM, Alexander Surkov
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">Jamie, do you have objections?<br>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Brett
          Lewis <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:BLewis@vfo-group.com" target="_blank">BLewis@vfo-group.com</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi,</span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I
                    have always thought of the placeholder more like a
                    value for the edit field rather than a name or
                    description.</span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">However,
                    I think the important thing is that we have a
                    mechanism that allows assistive technology to “know”
                    that the place holder is present and what the value
                    of the placeholder is.</span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Your
                    suggestions accomplish that.</span></p>
                <span>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Brett</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>Brett
                        Lewis</span></b></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>VFO</span></b><span>
                    </span><span>| Software
                      Engineer</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span>11800 31<sup>st</sup>
                      Court North, St. Petersburg, FL 33716</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>T</span></b><span> <a href="tel:727-299-6270" value="+17272996270" target="_blank">727-299-6270</a></span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><a href="mailto:blewis@vfo-group.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563c1">blewis@</span><span>vfo-group.com</span></a></span><span></span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><a href="http://www.vfo-group.com" target="_blank"><span>www.vfo-group.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0563c1"></span></u></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                </span>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">
                    Alexander Surkov [mailto:<a href="mailto:surkov.alexander@gmail.com" target="_blank">surkov.alexander@gmail<wbr>.com</a>]
                    <br>
                    <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 13, 2016 1:52 PM<br>
                    <b>To:</b> Brett Lewis &lt;<a href="mailto:BLewis@vfo-group.com" target="_blank">BLewis@vfo-group.com</a>&gt;;
                    James Teh &lt;<a href="mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org" target="_blank">jamie@nvaccess.org</a>&gt;<br>
                    <b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:Accessibility-ia2@lists.linux-foundation.org" target="_blank">Accessibility-ia2@lists.linux-<wbr>foundation.org</a><br>
                    <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Accessibility-ia2] HTML
                    placeholder attribute</span></p>
                <div>
                  <div class="m_7105790049815680047m_6183753077472923574m_7992236293429662488h5">
                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi, Brett and
                            all.</p>
                        </div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">There&#39;s some <span>discrepancy</span>
                          in the specs between UIA and IAccessible2
                          mappings. UIA column states [1] that HTML
                          placeholder is mapped to accessible name and
                          description, while IAccessible2 column says
                          HTML placeholder has same mapping as
                          aria-placeholder. aria-placeholder is exposed
                          it in AriaProperties [2] for UIA and as object
                          attribute for IAccessible2, the generic name
                          computation doesn&#39;t mention aria-placeholder
                          [3].<br>
                          <br>
                          Leaving aside the specs, in case of
                          IAccessible2 Firefox does similar things to
                          UIA. Iirc we agreed [4] to expose placeholder
                          as name/description, because it requires zero
                          adoption efforts from AT, and since nobody
                          claimed they need semantics of placeholder.<br>
                          <br>
                          If semantics loss is crucial for you, then I
                          think we could fix it by exposing HTML
                          placeholder this way:</p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">* name and description as
                          Firefox does (fix the spec to make it clear)</p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">* expose placeholder object
                          attribute</p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">* do not expose
                          explicit-name=&#39;true&#39; object attribute if
                          placeholder was used as name</p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">aria-placeholder may be
                          left with the current mapping. How does it
                          sound?</p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
                            [1] <a href="https://w3c.github.io/aria/html-aam/html-aam.html" target="_blank">https://w3c.github.io/aria/htm<wbr>l-aam/html-aam.html</a><br>
                            [2] <a href="http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname-aam.html" target="_blank">http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mas<wbr>ter/accname-aam/accname-aam.ht<wbr>ml</a><br>
                            [3] <a href="https://w3c.github.io/aria/accname-aam/accname-aam.html" target="_blank">https://w3c.github.io/aria/acc<wbr>name-aam/accname-aam.html</a><br>
                            [4] <span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif"><a href="https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=545817" target="_blank">https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/s<wbr>how_bug.cgi?id=545817</a></span></p>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at
                          11:07 AM, Brett Lewis &lt;<a href="mailto:BLewis@vfo-group.com" target="_blank">BLewis@vfo-group.com</a>&gt;
                          wrote:</p>
                        <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi
                                  All:</span></p>
                              <p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I
                                  have been looking at how the HTML
                                  placeholder attribute is supported by
                                  IA2. 
                                </span></p>
                              <p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">According
                                  to the HTML accessibility API mappings
                                  at:
                                  <a href="https://www.w3.org/TR/html-aam-1.0/" target="_blank">https://www.w3.org/TR/html-aam<wbr>-1.0/</a></span></p>
                              <p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The
                                  placeholder in HTML should be handled
                                  just like the aria-placeholder. 
                                </span></p>
                              <p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">According
                                  to the core api accessibility mappings
                                  <a href="http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html" target="_blank">http://w3c.github.io/aria/core<wbr>-aam/core-aam.html</a></span></p>
                              <p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The
                                  aria-placeholder is mapped to an Ia2
                                  object attribute of placeholder.</span></p>
                              <p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">So,
                                  it sounds like the HTML placeholder
                                  should be mapped to an IA2 object
                                  attribute of placeholder.</span></p>
                              <p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Currently
                                  Firefox seems to support the
                                  placeholder as the name of the field
                                  if there is no other name provided by
                                  the page author (from
                                </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif"><a href="https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=545817" target="_blank">https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/s<wbr>how_bug.cgi?id=545817</a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">.</span></p>
                              <p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">This
                                  seems to contradict the description of
                                  aria-placeholder from
                                </span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">the
                                  WAI-ARIA) 1.1 spec at
                                  <a href="http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-placeholder" target="_blank">
                                    http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mas<wbr>ter/aria/aria.html#aria-placeh<wbr>older</a></span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Says:</span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">“[ARIA
                                  1.1] Defines a short hint (a word or
                                  short phrase) intended to aid the user
                                  with data entry when the control has
                                  no value. A hint could be a sample
                                  value or a brief description of the
                                  expected format.</span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Authors
                                  should not use aria-placeholder</span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">instead
                                  of a label as their purposes are
                                  different: The label indicates what
                                  kind of information is expected. The
                                  placeholder text is a hint about the</span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">expected
                                  value. See related aria-labelledby and
                                  aria-label.</span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Authors
                                  should present this hint to the user
                                  by displaying the hint text at any
                                  time the control&#39;s value is the empty
                                  string. This includes cases where</span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">the
                                  control first receives focus, and when
                                  users remove a previously-entered
                                  value.</span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">NOTE</span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">As
                                  is the case with the related HTML
                                  placeholder</span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">attribute,
                                  use of placeholder text as a
                                  replacement for a displayed label can
                                  reduce the accessibility and usability
                                  of the control for a range of users</span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">including
                                  older users and users with cognitive,
                                  mobility, fine motor skill or vision
                                  impairments. While the hint given by
                                  the control&#39;s label is shown</span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">at
                                  all times, the short hint given in the
                                  placeholder attribute is only shown
                                  before the user enters a value.
                                  Furthermore, placeholder text may be
                                  mistaken for a pre-filled value, and
                                  as commonly implemented the default
                                  color of the placeholder text provides
                                  insufficient contrast and the lack of
                                  a separate visible label reduces the
                                  size of the hit region available for
                                  setting focus on the control.”</span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I
                                  am suggesting that we all agree to
                                  present the HTML placeholder just like
                                  the aria-placeholder using the IA2
                                  object attribute of placeholder?</span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">This
                                  provides the most flexibility for
                                  screenreaders to present the
                                  placeholder information anyway they
                                  see fit.  Using the placeholder as the
                                  name is not as flexible as the
                                  screenreader cannot distinguish
                                  between the placeholder and the label
                                  in this case.</span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">What
                                  does everyone think?</span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Thanks,</span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Brett</span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>Brett Lewis</span></b></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>VFO</span></b><span>
                                  </span><span>| Software Engineer</span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span>11800 31<sup>st</sup> Court North,
                                    St. Petersburg, FL 33716</span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>T</span></b><span>
                                    <a href="tel:727-299-6270" target="_blank">727-299-6270</a></span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><a href="mailto:blewis@vfo-group.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563c1">blewis@</span><span>vfo-group.com</span></a></span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><a href="http://www.vfo-group.com" target="_blank"><span>www.vfo-group.com</span></a></span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
                            ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
                            Accessibility-ia2 mailing list<br>
                            <a href="mailto:Accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank">Accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxf<wbr>oundation.org</a><br>
                            <a href="https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2" target="_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org/mailman/listinfo/accessibi<wbr>lity-ia2</a></p>
                        </blockquote>
                      </div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
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          </blockquote>
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    </blockquote>
    <br>
    </div></div><span class="m_7105790049815680047m_6183753077472923574HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><pre class="m_7105790049815680047m_6183753077472923574m_7992236293429662488moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
James Teh
Executive Director, NV Access Limited
Ph <a href="tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306" value="+61731493306" target="_blank">+61 7 3149 3306</a>
<a class="m_7105790049815680047m_6183753077472923574m_7992236293429662488moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.nvaccess.org" target="_blank">www.nvaccess.org</a>
Facebook: <a class="m_7105790049815680047m_6183753077472923574m_7992236293429662488moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/NVAcce<wbr>ss</a>
Twitter: @NVAccess
SIP: <a class="m_7105790049815680047m_6183753077472923574m_7992236293429662488moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org" target="_blank">jamie@nvaccess.org</a>
</pre>
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