<div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 2:59 PM, Alan Reiner <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:etotheipi@gmail.com" target="_blank">etotheipi@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<br>
This isn't about "everyone's coffee". This is about an absolute
minimum amount of participation by people who wish to use the
network. If our goal is really for bitcoin to really be a global,
open transaction network that makes money fluid, then 7tps is
already a failure. If even 5% of the world (350M people) was using
the network for 1 tx per month (perhaps to open payment channels, or
shift money between side chains), we'll be above 100 tps. And that
doesn't include all the non-individuals (organizations) that want to
use it. <br></div></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
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The goals of "a global transaction network" and "everyone must be
able to run a full node with their $200 dell laptop" are not
compatible. We need to accept that a global transaction system
cannot be fully/constantly audited by everyone and their mother.
The important feature of the network is that it is open and anyone
*can* get the history and verify it. But not everyone is required
to. Trying to promote a system wher000e the history can be forever
handled by a low-end PC is already falling out of reach, even with
our miniscule 7 tps. Clinging to that goal needlessly limits the
capability for the network to scale to be a useful global payments
system <br></div></blockquote><div><br><div>These are good points and got me thinking (but I think you're
wrong). If we really want each of the 10 billion people soon using
bitcoin once per month, that will require 500MB blocks. That's about 2
TB per month. And if you relay it to 4 peers, it's 10 TB per month.
Which I suppose is doable for a home desktop, so you can just run a
pruned full node with all transactions from the past month. But how do
you sync all those transactions if you've never done this before or it's
been a while since you did? I think it currently takes at least 3 hours
to fully sync 30 GB of transactions. So 2 TB will take 8 days, then you
take a bit more time to sync the days that passed while you were
syncing. So that's doable, but at a certain point, like 10 TB per month
(still only 5 transactions per month per person), you will need 41 days
to sync that month, so you will never catch up. So I think in order to
keep the very important property of anyone being able to start clean and
verify the thing, then we need to think of bitcoin as a system that
does transactions for a large number of users at once in one
transaction, and not a system where each person will make a ~monthly
transaction on. We need to therefore rely on sidechains, treechains,
lightning channels, etc...<br><br></div>I'm not a bitcoin wizard
and this is just my second post on this mailing list, so I may be
missing something. So please someone, correct me if I'm wrong. <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
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<div>On 05/07/2015 03:54 PM, Jeff Garzik
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote"><span class="">On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 3:31 PM, Alan
Reiner <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:etotheipi@gmail.com" target="_blank">etotheipi@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> (2) Leveraging fee
pressure at 1MB to solve the problem is actually really
a bad idea. It's really bad while Bitcoin is still
growing, and relying on fee pressure at 1 MB severely
impacts attractiveness and adoption potential of Bitcoin
(due to high fees and unreliability). But more
importantly, it ignores the fact that for a 7 tps is
pathetic for a global transaction system. It is a
couple orders of magnitude too low for any meaningful
commercial activity to occur. If we continue with a cap
of 7 tps forever, Bitcoin <b>will</b> fail. Or at
best, it will fail to be useful for the vast majority of
the world (which probably leads to failure). We
shouldn't be talking about fee pressure until we hit 700
tps, which is probably still too low. <br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span><div> [...]<br>
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</div>
<div>1) Agree that 7 tps is too low<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>2) Where do you want to go? Should bitcoin scale up to
handle all the world's coffees? <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is hugely unrealistic. 700 tps is 100MB blocks,
14.4 GB/day -- just for a single feed. If you include
relaying to multiple nodes, plus serving 500 million SPV
clients en grosse, who has the capacity to run such a
node? By the time we get to fee pressure, in your
scenario, our network node count is tiny and highly
centralized.<br>
<br>
</div>
3) In RE "fee pressure" -- Do you see the moral hazard to a
software-run system? It is an intentional, human decision
to flood the market with supply, thereby altering the
economics, forcing fees to remain low in the hopes of
achieving adoption. I'm pro-bitcoin and obviously want to
see bitcoin adoption - but I don't want to sacrifice every
decentralized principle and become a central banker in order
to get there.<br>
</div>
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</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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