<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=Windows-1252">
<style type="text/css" style="display:none;"><!-- P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} --></style>
</head>
<body dir="ltr">
<div id="divtagdefaultwrapper" style="font-size:12pt;color:#000000;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;" dir="ltr">
<p>Hi Juan</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> > I tend to believe more in Moore’s law, Butters' Law of Photonics and Kryder’s Law all has been verified for many years and support that 32 MB in 2020 are possible and equals or less than
1 MB in 2010.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> </span></p>
<p></p>
<p> Protocol development, especially one in control of people's money cannot be based on beliefs. Do you have actual data to show significant increases in desktop CPU, memory and bandwidth?</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>All empirical evidence points to the opposite. </p>
<p>Intel has been struggling to eek out 5-10% gains for each generation of its CPUs. The growth of the total blockchain size at 1MB alone is much faster than this.</p>
<p>CPU Core counts have also been stagnant for a decade.</p>
<p>Disk Space growth has also been slowing and with the trend towards SSDs, available disk space in a typical PC has turned negative sharply.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Regards</p>
<p>Luv</p>
<br>
<br>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<hr tabindex="-1" style="display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> bitcoin-dev-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org <bitcoin-dev-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org> on behalf of Juan Garavaglia via bitcoin-dev
<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 29, 2017 6:36 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alphonse Pace; Wang Chun<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Bitcoin Protocol Discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [bitcoin-dev] Hard fork proposal from last week's meeting</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Alphonse,</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Even when several of the experts involved in the document you refer has my respect and admiration, I do not agree with some of their conclusions some of their estimations are not accurate other
changed like Bootstrap Time, Cost per Confirmed Transaction they consider a network of 450,000,00 GH and today is 3.594.236.966 GH, the energy consumption per GH is old, the cost of electricity is wrong even when the document was made and is hard to find any
parameter used that is valid for an analysis today.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Again with all respect to the experts involved in that analysis is not valid today.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I tend to believe more in Moore’s law, Butters' Law of Photonics and Kryder’s Law all has been verified for many years and support that 32 MB in 2020 are possible and equals or less than 1 MB
in 2010.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Again may be is not possible Johnson Lau and LukeJr invested a significant amount of time investigating ways to do a safe HF, and may be not possible to do a safe HF today but from processing
power, bandwidth and storage is totally valid and Wang Chung proposal has solid grounds.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Regards</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Juan</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Alphonse Pace [mailto:alp.bitcoin@gmail.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 28, 2017 2:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Juan Garavaglia <jg@112bit.com>; Wang Chun <1240902@gmail.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [bitcoin-dev] Hard fork proposal from last week's meeting</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
</p>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
Juan,</p>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
I suggest you take a look at this paper: <a href="http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/papers/CDE+16.pdf" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" id="LPlnk816140" previewremoved="true">http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/papers/CDE+16.pdf</a> It may help you form
opinions based in science rather than what appears to be nothing more than a hunch. It shows that even 4MB is unsafe. SegWit provides up to this limit.</p>
<div id="LPBorder_GT_14907558738110.3094368724196268" style="margin-bottom: 20px; overflow: auto; width: 100%; text-indent: 0px;">
<table id="LPContainer_14907558738080.782246796082793" role="presentation" cellspacing="0" style="width: 90%; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); position: relative; overflow: auto; padding-top: 20px; padding-bottom: 20px; margin-top: 20px; border-top: 1px dotted rgb(200, 200, 200); border-bottom: 1px dotted rgb(200, 200, 200);">
<tbody>
<tr valign="top" style="border-spacing: 0px;">
<td id="TextCell_14907558738090.7534358213956773" colspan="2" style="vertical-align: top; position: relative; padding: 0px; display: table-cell;">
<div id="LPRemovePreviewContainer_14907558738090.24110248372443932"></div>
<div id="LPTitle_14907558738090.06832485338974936" style="top: 0px; color: rgb(0, 120, 215); font-weight: normal; font-size: 21px; font-family: wf_segoe-ui_light, "Segoe UI Light", "Segoe WP Light", "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif; line-height: 21px;">
<a id="LPUrlAnchor_14907558738090.5194087076626526" href="http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/papers/CDE+16.pdf" target="_blank" style="text-decoration: none;">On Scaling Decentralized Blockchains</a></div>
<div id="LPMetadata_14907558738100.6670248164315031" style="margin: 10px 0px 16px; color: rgb(102, 102, 102); font-weight: normal; font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 14px;">
fc16.ifca.ai</div>
<div id="LPDescription_14907558738100.8450243153853765" style="display: block; color: rgb(102, 102, 102); font-weight: normal; font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 20px; max-height: 100px; overflow: hidden;">
On Scaling Decentralized Blockchains (A Position Paper) Kyle Croman 0 ;1, Christian Decker 4, Ittay Eyal , Adem Efe Gencer , Ari Juels 0 ;2, Ahmed Kosba 0 ;3, Andrew ...</div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
8MB is most definitely not safe today.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
Whether it is unsafe or impossible is the topic, since Wang Chun proposed making the block size limit 32MiB. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
Wang Chun,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<br>
Can you specify what meeting you are talking about? You seem to have not replied on that point. Who were the participants and what was the purpose of this meeting?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
-Alphonse</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
</p>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Juan Garavaglia <<a href="mailto:jg@112bit.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">jg@112bit.com</a>> wrote:</p>
<blockquote style="border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Alphonse,</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">In my opinion if 1MB limit was ok in 2010, 8MB limit is ok on 2016 and 32MB limit valid in next halving, from network, storage and CPU perspective or 1MB was too high in 2010 what is possible
or 1MB is to low today.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">If is unsafe or impossible to raise the blocksize is a different topic.</span> </p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style="border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Regards</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Juan</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<a href="mailto:bitcoin-dev-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">
bitcoin-dev-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:bitcoin-dev-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">bitcoin-dev-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Alphonse Pace via bitcoin-dev<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 28, 2017 2:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Wang Chun <<a href="mailto:1240902@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">1240902@gmail.com</a>>; Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <<a href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [bitcoin-dev] Hard fork proposal from last week's meeting</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
</p>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
What meeting are you referring to? Who were the participants?</p>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
Removing the limit but relying on the p2p protocol is not really a true 32MiB limit, but a limit of whatever transport methods provide. This can lead to differing consensus if alternative layers for relaying are used. What you seem to be asking for is an
unbound block size (or at least determined by whatever miners produce). This has the possibility (and even likelihood) of removing many participants from the network, including many small miners. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
32MB in less than 3 years also appears to be far beyond limits of safety which are known to exist far sooner, and we cannot expect hardware and networking layers to improve by those amounts in that time.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
It also seems like it would be much better to wait until SegWit activates in order to truly measure the effects on the network from this increased capacity before committing to any additional increases.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
-Alphonse</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
</p>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 11:59 AM, Wang Chun via bitcoin-dev <<a href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:</p>
<blockquote style="border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0in; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
I've proposed this hard fork approach last year in Hong Kong Consensus<br>
but immediately rejected by coredevs at that meeting, after more than<br>
one year it seems that lots of people haven't heard of it. So I would<br>
post this here again for comment.<br>
<br>
The basic idea is, as many of us agree, hard fork is risky and should<br>
be well prepared. We need a long time to deploy it.<br>
<br>
Despite spam tx on the network, the block capacity is approaching its<br>
limit, and we must think ahead. Shall we code a patch right now, to<br>
remove the block size limit of 1MB, but not activate it until far in<br>
the future. I would propose to remove the 1MB limit at the next block<br>
halving in spring 2020, only limit the block size to 32MiB which is<br>
the maximum size the current p2p protocol allows. This patch must be<br>
in the immediate next release of Bitcoin Core.<br>
<br>
With this patch in core's next release, Bitcoin works just as before,<br>
no fork will ever occur, until spring 2020. But everyone knows there<br>
will be a fork scheduled. Third party services, libraries, wallets and<br>
exchanges will have enough time to prepare for it over the next three<br>
years.<br>
<br>
We don't yet have an agreement on how to increase the block size<br>
limit. There have been many proposals over the past years, like<br>
BIP100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 109, 148, 248, BU, and so<br>
on. These hard fork proposals, with this patch already in Core's<br>
release, they all become soft fork. We'll have enough time to discuss<br>
all these proposals and decide which one to go. Take an example, if we<br>
choose to fork to only 2MB, since 32MiB already scheduled, reduce it<br>
from 32MiB to 2MB will be a soft fork.<br>
<br>
Anyway, we must code something right now, before it becomes too late.<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>