<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto">Is that what passes for a technical argument these days? Sheesh.<div><br></div><div><div>Whereas in Drivechain users are forced to give up their coins to a single group for whatever sidechains they interact with, the generic sharding algo lets them (1) keep their coins, (2) trust whatever group they want to trust (the miners of the various sidechains).</div><div><br></div><div>Drivechain offers objectively worse security.</div><br><div id="AppleMailSignature">--<div>Sent from my mobile device.</div><div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA.</span></div></div><div><br>On Oct 10, 2017, at 8:09 AM, Paul Sztorc via bitcoin-dev <<a href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I think this response speaks for
itself.<br>
<br>
On 10/10/2017 10:09 AM, Tao Effect wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:FBD96A02-243E-4E09-9204-EC90DE5EE576@taoeffect.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div class="">Hi Paul,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I thought it was clear, but apparently you are
getting stuck on the semantics of the word "burn".</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The "burning" applies to the original coins you had.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">When you transfer them back, you get newly minted
coins, equivalent to the amount you "burned" on the chain you're
transferring from — as stated in the OP.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">If you don't like the word "burn", pick another one.</div>
<div class="">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric:
normal; font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
2; widows: 2;" class=""><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
--</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric:
normal; font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
2; widows: 2;" class="">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric:
normal; font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
2; widows: 2;" class="">Please do not email me anything that
you are not comfortable also sharing</span><span style="color:
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal;
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
2; widows: 2;" class=""> with the NSA.</span>
</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Oct 10, 2017, at 4:20 AM, Paul Sztorc <<a href="mailto:truthcoin@gmail.com" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">truthcoin@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="auto" class="">Haha, no. Because you "burned" the
coins.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Oct 10, 2017 1:20 AM, "Tao
Effect" <<a href="mailto:contact@taoeffect.com" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">contact@taoeffect.com</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution" class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">Paul,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">It's a two-way peg.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">There's nothing preventing transfers
back to the main chain.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">They work in the exact same manner.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Cheers,</div>
<div class="">Greg<br class="">
<div class="">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height:
normal;" class=""><br class="m_8294306076325067848Apple-interchange-newline">
--</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height:
normal;" class="">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height:
normal;" class="">Please do not email me
anything that you are not comfortable also
sharing</span><span style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height:
normal;" class=""> with the NSA.</span>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Oct 9, 2017, at 6:39 PM, Paul
Sztorc <<a href="mailto:truthcoin@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">truthcoin@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="m_8294306076325067848Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="auto" class="">
<div class="">That is only a one-way peg,
not a two-way.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">In fact, that is
exactly what drivechain does, if one
chooses parameters for the drivechain
that make it impossible for any
side-to-main transfer to succeed.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">One-way pegs have
strong first-mover disadvantages.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Paul<br class="">
<div class="gmail_extra" dir="auto"><br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Oct 9,
2017 9:24 PM, "Tao Effect via
bitcoin-dev" <<a href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr class="">linuxfoundation.org</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution" class="">
<blockquote class="m_8294306076325067848quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">Dear list,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">In previous
arguments over Drivechain
(and Drivechain-like
proposals) I promised that
better scaling proposals —
that do not sacrifice
Bitcoin's security — would
come along.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I planned to do
a detailed writeup, but have
decided to just send off
this email with what I have,
because I'm unlikely to have
time to write up a detailed
proposal.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The idea is very
simple (and by no means
novel*), and I'm sure others
have mentioned either
exactly it, or similar ideas
(e.g. burning coins) before.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">This is a
generic sharding protocol
for all blockchains,
including Bitcoin.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Users simply
say: "My coins on Chain A
are going to be sent to
Chain B".</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Then they burn
the coins on Chain A, and
create a minting transaction
on Chain B. The details of
how to ensure that coins do
not get lost needs to be
worked out, but I'm fairly
certain the folks on this
list can figure out those
details.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">- Thin clients,
nodes, and miners, can all
very easily verify that said
action took place, and
therefore accept the "newly
minted" coins on B as valid.</div>
<div class="">- Users client
software now also knows
where to look for the other
coins (if for some reason it
needs to).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">This doesn't
even need much modification
to the Bitcoin protocol as
most of the verification is
done client-side.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">It is fully
decentralized, and there's
no need to give our
ownership of our coins to
miners to get scale.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">My sincere
apologies if this has been
brought up before (in which
case, I would be very
grateful for a link to the
proposal).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Cheers,</div>
<div class="">Greg Slepak</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">* This idea is
similar in spirit to
Interledger.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;line-height:normal" class="">--</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;line-height:normal" class="">
<span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;line-height:normal" class="">Please do not
email me anything that
you are not
comfortable also
sharing</span><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;line-height:normal" class=""> with the
NSA.</span>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
______________________________<wbr class="">_________________<br class="">
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat<wbr class="">ion.org</a><br class="">
<a href="https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr class="">org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-d<wbr class="">ev</a><br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>bitcoin-dev mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a></span><br><span><a href="https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div></body></html>