<div dir="ltr"><div>It seems to me if bitcoin forks the consumer facing companies would
be responsible for crediting users with balances on both chains. The
word 'framing' makes me think of subjective marketing terms -- this is
the interesting thing about bitcoin -- we are dealing with a bearer
asset that *technically* can be forked by *anybody*.</div><div><br></div><div>>they can simply tell their customers that this is the upgrade path that
they will be taking, and if they don’t agree with it, then they should
remove their funds or cease to use their service</div><div><br></div><div>Again,
I disagree about the word 'upgrade' in this context -- see my Peter
Thiel comment -- but otherwise this seems prudent if you are diverging
from consensus, but do you think there is enough time left until the
hard fork to actually do this in a responsible manner? A lot of people
don't follow bitcoin news on a daily basis like both of us do.<br></div><div><br></div>-Chris</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 10:05 PM, Jerry D Chan <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jerry.d.chan@bittoku.co.jp" target="_blank">jerry.d.chan@bittoku.co.jp</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">They *could*, if they were framing the fork as an optional new transactional network option. But if they are framing it as an *upgrade* to the existing one, they can simply tell their customers that this is the upgrade path that they will be taking, and if they don’t agree with it, then they should remove their funds or cease to use their service. There is no way to ‘ask’ your customers that can’t be simply sybil attacked by those who will pay for social media noise.<div><br></div><div><br><div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Jerry D Chan</div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">President and Founder</div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Bittoku G.K.</div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href="mailto:jerry.d.chan@bittoku.co.jp" target="_blank">jerry.d.chan@bittoku.co.jp</a></div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href="http://www.bittoku.co.jp" target="_blank">www.bittoku.co.jp</a></div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><br class="m_-2721083775981801466Apple-interchange-newline" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span><span><span><span><span><img id="m_-27210837759818014665F7127E8-F058-4C95-9AD8-9A26200E31A2" src="cid:1DBC3DC4-AFEA-4024-B3B7-99EF276DE849"></span>
</span></span></span></span></span></div><div><div class="h5">
<br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Oct 9, 2017, at 12:02, Chris Stewart via Bitcoin-segwit2x <<a href="mailto:bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank">bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_-2721083775981801466Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div dir="auto">So again -- just to be crystal clear -- consumer facing companies that signed the segwit2x agreement should offer their customers this choice between the two chains? <div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">-Chris</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Oct 8, 2017 9:55 PM, "digitsu" <<a href="mailto:jerry.d.chan@bittoku.co.jp" target="_blank">jerry.d.chan@bittoku.co.jp</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">It doesn’t require any assumptions. Users (who tend to care about the transaction validity and reliability of their chain) will move. Those that don’t move will stay because they value their principles or idealogy more than functionality or security of their chain. Everyone will get what they want (to pay for).<div><br></div><div>There is no coercion required.</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Oct 9, 2017, at 11:43, Chris Stewart via Bitcoin-segwit2x <<a href="mailto:bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank">bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxf<wbr>oundation.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div dir="auto"><div>You cannot make assumptions about what users will do (unless you are assuming that the business they are using coerced them onto a specific chain). </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Also the word 'upgraded' is very subjective. I consider upgrades to be the Peter Thiel flavor of "0 to 1" (legitimate new technology) not the "1 to N" that hard forking a block size increase does. <br><div class="gmail_extra" dir="auto"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra" dir="auto">-Chris<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Oct 8, 2017 9:05 PM, "Emil Oldenburg" <<a href="mailto:emil@bitcoin.com" target="_blank">emil@bitcoin.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><p>I never said it will. Simply that the users will move to the
upgraded chain and the legacy one will have neither blocks nor
users after a short while.<br>
</p><div class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611quoted-text"><p><br>
</p>
<pre class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611m_715881382618625916moz-signature" cols="72">Emil Oldenburg, CTO
<a class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611m_715881382618625916moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Emil@bitcoin.com" target="_blank">Emil@bitcoin.com</a>
Visit the all new <a class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611m_715881382618625916moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://bitcoin.com/" target="_blank">https://bitcoin.com</a>
Wechat: emilold
Telegram: emilold</pre>
</div><div class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611elided-text"><div class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611m_715881382618625916moz-cite-prefix">On 2017年10月09日 10:59, Chris Stewart
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>This is really alarming that you think this is how
consensus protocols work. The legacy chain will never reorg
to the new currency. The two consensus rule sets are
incompatible. <br>
</div>
<br>
</div>
-Chris<br>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 8:39 PM, Emil
Oldenburg via Bitcoin-segwit2x <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank">bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxf<wbr>oundation.org</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><p>Chain splits happens once in a while, we had a chain
split three days ago, even though it didn't last as no
miner built a block on top of the AntPool block since
the cost of burying it deep enough to reach more than
100 confirmations so it can be sold, simply was too
high.<br>
<br>
<a class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611m_715881382618625916m_3609147054397802481moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/blocks/orphans/1" target="_blank">https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC<wbr>/blocks/orphans/1</a></p><p>Post HF, we will get a chain split, and blocks will
be mined on both chains. But the economic reality is
that the non-upgraded legacy chain face a significant
risk of getting orphaned/abandoned. What is a good
definition of chain split? 1, 100, or 1000 blocks?<br>
</p><p><br>
</p>
<pre class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611m_715881382618625916m_3609147054397802481moz-signature" cols="72">Emil Oldenburg, CTO
<a class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611m_715881382618625916m_3609147054397802481moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Emil@bitcoin.com" target="_blank">Emil@bitcoin.com</a>
Visit the all new <a class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611m_715881382618625916m_3609147054397802481moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://bitcoin.com/" target="_blank">https://bitcoin.com</a>
Wechat: emilold
Telegram: emilold</pre>
<div>
<div class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611m_715881382618625916h5">
<div class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611m_715881382618625916m_3609147054397802481moz-cite-prefix">On
2017年10月09日 09:56, Chris Stewart via
Bitcoin-segwit2x wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611m_715881382618625916h5">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>So just so this is clear to the rest of the
world, Segwit2x believes there will be no
chain split?<br>
<br>
</div>
-Chris<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at
5:57 PM, bitPico <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bitpico@icloud.com" target="_blank">bitpico@icloud.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div><a href="https://blockchain.info/charts/nya-support" target="_blank">https://blockchain.info/charts<wbr>/nya-support</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>~95-96% </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Do the math on how long it would take
to solve a 1x (deprecated) block with
only 4-5% network hash power.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There is no HACK in place to drop the
difficulty either so it’s a dead
blockchain. :-)</div>
<span><br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Oct 8, 2017, at 6:46 PM,
Chris Stewart via Bitcoin-segwit2x
<<a href="mailto:bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank">bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxf<wbr>oundation.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611m_715881382618625916m_3609147054397802481m_687486525595161421Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>So just to be clear,
segwit2x no longer believes
there will not be a chain
split come November? <br>
<br>
</div>
-Chris<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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<span>
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<a class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611m_715881382618625916m_3609147054397802481moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-segwit2x" target="_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-s<wbr>egwit2x</a>
</pre>
</span></blockquote>
<br>
</div>
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<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Bitcoin-segwit2x mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank">Bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfo<wbr>undation.org</a><br><a href="https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-segwit2x" target="_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-s<wbr>egwit2x</a><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div></div>
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