<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">There is no marketing involved. Let’s keep the discussion technical, there is no reason to start debating phrasing or semantics here, I should think you know very well what I mean when I said ‘framing’. Its a business, they can choose what kind of service they can provide their customers. If they were a business that was run properly, then they would have stated in their T&C that they would only offer access to the bitcoin ledger of which they have the sole right to determine which one it is. Most of the time this will be what everyone else agrees it is, but in times of a fork, the only thing that the business can guarantee that they will have control over their version of the ledger. <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Unless a company has explicitly stated that they will support any and all ledger forks that persist past a certain time, this should not be assumed to be the default behaviour, ‘ethical’, ‘moral obligation’ or otherwise.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Bitcoin is a new paradigm. Users who put their money into it thinking that it is just ‘digital gold’ and services just ‘banks’ should be dissuaded from believing this oversimplification, for exactly the situations such as the one we find ourselves in now.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class="">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">Jerry D Chan</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">President and Founder</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">Bittoku G.K.</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><a href="mailto:jerry.d.chan@bittoku.co.jp" class="">jerry.d.chan@bittoku.co.jp</a></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><a href="http://www.bittoku.co.jp" class="">www.bittoku.co.jp</a></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span><span><span><span><span><img apple-inline="yes" id="E2B71B16-E246-475C-A314-4ACFB34060B9" src="cid:1DBC3DC4-AFEA-4024-B3B7-99EF276DE849" class=""></span>
</span></span></span></span></span></div>
<br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 9, 2017, at 12:26, Chris Stewart <<a href="mailto:chris@suredbits.com" class="">chris@suredbits.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><div class="">It seems to me if bitcoin forks the consumer facing companies would be responsible for crediting users with balances on both chains. The word 'framing' makes me think of subjective marketing terms -- this is the interesting thing about bitcoin -- we are dealing with a bearer asset that *technically* can be forked by *anybody*.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">>they can simply tell their customers that this is the upgrade path that they will be taking, and if they don’t agree with it, then they should remove their funds or cease to use their service</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Again, I disagree about the word 'upgrade' in this context -- see my Peter Thiel comment -- but otherwise this seems prudent if you are diverging from consensus, but do you think there is enough time left until the hard fork to actually do this in a responsible manner? A lot of people don't follow bitcoin news on a daily basis like both of us do.<br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div>-Chris</div><div class="gmail_extra" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 10:05 PM, Jerry D Chan<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:jerry.d.chan@bittoku.co.jp" target="_blank" class="">jerry.d.chan@bittoku.co.jp</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word;" class="">They *could*, if they were framing the fork as an optional new transactional network option. But if they are framing it as an *upgrade* to the existing one, they can simply tell their customers that this is the upgrade path that they will be taking, and if they don’t agree with it, then they should remove their funds or cease to use their service. There is no way to ‘ask’ your customers that can’t be simply sybil attacked by those who will pay for social media noise.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class="">Jerry D Chan</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class="">President and Founder</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class="">Bittoku G.K.</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><a href="mailto:jerry.d.chan@bittoku.co.jp" target="_blank" class="">jerry.d.chan@bittoku.co.jp</a></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><a href="http://www.bittoku.co.jp/" target="_blank" class="">www.bittoku.co.jp</a></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div><br class="m_-2721083775981801466Apple-interchange-newline" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><span class=""><span class=""><span class=""><span class=""><span class=""><span id="cid:1DBC3DC4-AFEA-4024-B3B7-99EF276DE849"><Screen Shot 2014-08-10 at 2.19.56.png></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div><div class=""><div class="h5"><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 9, 2017, at 12:02, Chris Stewart via Bitcoin-segwit2x <<a href="mailto:bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank" class="">bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.<wbr class="">linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_-2721083775981801466Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="auto" class="">So again -- just to be crystal clear -- consumer facing companies that signed the segwit2x agreement should offer their customers this choice between the two chains? <div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">-Chris</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Oct 8, 2017 9:55 PM, "digitsu" <<a href="mailto:jerry.d.chan@bittoku.co.jp" target="_blank" class="">jerry.d.chan@bittoku.co.jp</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution" class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word;" class="">It doesn’t require any assumptions. Users (who tend to care about the transaction validity and reliability of their chain) will move. Those that don’t move will stay because they value their principles or idealogy more than functionality or security of their chain. Everyone will get what they want (to pay for).<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">There is no coercion required.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 9, 2017, at 11:43, Chris Stewart via Bitcoin-segwit2x <<a href="mailto:bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank" class="">bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxf<wbr class="">oundation.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div class="">You cannot make assumptions about what users will do (unless you are assuming that the business they are using coerced them onto a specific chain). </div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Also the word 'upgraded' is very subjective. I consider upgrades to be the Peter Thiel flavor of "0 to 1" (legitimate new technology) not the "1 to N" that hard forking a block size increase does. <br class=""><div class="gmail_extra" dir="auto"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_extra" dir="auto">-Chris<br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Oct 8, 2017 9:05 PM, "Emil Oldenburg" <<a href="mailto:emil@bitcoin.com" target="_blank" class="">emil@bitcoin.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution" class=""><blockquote class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""><p class="">I never said it will. Simply that the users will move to the upgraded chain and the legacy one will have neither blocks nor users after a short while.<br class=""></p><div class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611quoted-text"><p class=""><br class=""></p><pre class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611m_715881382618625916moz-signature" cols="72">Emil Oldenburg, CTO
<a class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611m_715881382618625916moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Emil@bitcoin.com" target="_blank">Emil@bitcoin.com</a>
Visit the all new <a class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611m_715881382618625916moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://bitcoin.com/" target="_blank">https://bitcoin.com</a>
Wechat: emilold
Telegram: emilold</pre></div><div class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611elided-text"><div class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611m_715881382618625916moz-cite-prefix">On 2017年10月09日 10:59, Chris Stewart wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div class="">This is really alarming that you think this is how consensus protocols work. The legacy chain will never reorg to the new currency. The two consensus rule sets are incompatible. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></div><br class=""></div>-Chris<br class=""><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 8:39 PM, Emil Oldenburg via Bitcoin-segwit2x<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank" class="">bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxf<wbr class="">oundation.org</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""><p class="">Chain splits happens once in a while, we had a chain split three days ago, even though it didn't last as no miner built a block on top of the AntPool block since the cost of burying it deep enough to reach more than 100 confirmations so it can be sold, simply was too high.<br class=""><br class=""><a class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611m_715881382618625916m_3609147054397802481moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/blocks/orphans/1" target="_blank">https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC<wbr class="">/blocks/orphans/1</a></p><p class="">Post HF, we will get a chain split, and blocks will be mined on both chains. But the economic reality is that the non-upgraded legacy chain face a significant risk of getting orphaned/abandoned. What is a good definition of chain split? 1, 100, or 1000 blocks?<br class=""></p><p class=""><br class=""></p><pre class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611m_715881382618625916m_3609147054397802481moz-signature" cols="72">Emil Oldenburg, CTO
<a class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611m_715881382618625916m_3609147054397802481moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Emil@bitcoin.com" target="_blank">Emil@bitcoin.com</a>
Visit the all new <a class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611m_715881382618625916m_3609147054397802481moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://bitcoin.com/" target="_blank">https://bitcoin.com</a>
Wechat: emilold
Telegram: emilold</pre><div class=""><div class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611m_715881382618625916h5"><div class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611m_715881382618625916m_3609147054397802481moz-cite-prefix">On 2017年10月09日 09:56, Chris Stewart via Bitcoin-segwit2x wrote:<br class=""></div></div></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611m_715881382618625916h5"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="">So just so this is clear to the rest of the world, Segwit2x believes there will be no chain split?<br class=""><br class=""></div>-Chris<br class=""></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 5:57 PM, bitPico<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:bitpico@icloud.com" target="_blank" class="">bitpico@icloud.com</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div class=""><a href="https://blockchain.info/charts/nya-support" target="_blank" class="">https://blockchain.info/charts<wbr class="">/nya-support</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">~95-96% </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Do the math on how long it would take to solve a 1x (deprecated) block with only 4-5% network hash power.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">There is no HACK in place to drop the difficulty either so it’s a dead blockchain. :-)</div><span class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 8, 2017, at 6:46 PM, Chris Stewart via Bitcoin-segwit2x <<a href="mailto:bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank" class="">bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxf<wbr class="">oundation.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611m_715881382618625916m_3609147054397802481m_687486525595161421Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="">So just to be clear, segwit2x no longer believes there will not be a chain split come November?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class=""></div>-Chris<br class=""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></span></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div><br class=""><fieldset class="m_-2721083775981801466m_9124883245416732611m_715881382618625916m_3609147054397802481mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset><br class=""></div></div><span class=""><pre class="">______________________________<wbr class="">_________________
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