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<p class="MsoNormal">Miners secure the network, SegWit2x is an upgrade to the network consensus rules.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="border:none;padding:0cm"><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org">hubert maslin via Bitcoin-segwit2x</a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>24 October 2017 17:44<br>
<b>To: </b><a href="mailto:segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org">segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Bitcoin-segwit2x] PROPOSAL: B0RG (Bitcoin zero replay, guarantee) - Ensuring a smooth 2X upgrade without a chain split</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The only way there could be demand for B2X would be by having miners deny mining on the original chain for long enough as to make its price tank - and it's not even sure it would tank so much - so as to orient new capital to the B2X chain.
This hard fork would be a denial of service activated hard fork: it counts on DoSing Bitcoin so as to create demand for the forked chain.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">2017-10-24 18:38 GMT+02:00 Bitcoin Error Log via Bitcoin-segwit2x <<a href="mailto:bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank">bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>>:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">What you are missing is that YOU are now heavily speculating, Erik. It doesn't matter if miners express indecision. There will be two chains, and you are nuts if you think some volatility in hashrate allows for a definitive diagnosis that
RP is not needed. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Miners will mine what pays best. Ask yourself, who will be paying for S2X coins? You may have gotten miners to agree, and some businesses to support your fork, but NO ONE WANTS TO BUY B2X. The demand isn't there, and if we're realistic,
our example scenario would be whether the S2X chain is sustainable, not the reverse.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 12:27 PM Erik Voorhees via Bitcoin-segwit2x <<a href="mailto:bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank">bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">I have a question for the group...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">"<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Given the market is showing that the 2x coin will be valued under 20% of bitcoin, miners acting in self interest will mine bitcoin and the 2x chain will freeze up, requiring
subsidy to mine.” - Mo Adham</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">-Let’s assume, immediately following the fork, 1x has 20% of hash power, and 2x has 80% (as indicated by miner signaling)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">-Let’s assume also that the price, immediately following the fork, 1x is $4,000 and 2x is $1,000 (as indicated by futures)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Most people see the above and think, “okay, soon after the fork the miners will switch back to 1x because price is higher.” </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">But, is it not the case that while price might be higher, block times are lower. So if you consider it from a $ revenue per day:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">- 1x finds 28.8 blocks per day (0.2x144) and earns 360 BTC1x, or $1.44m per day ($4,000 x 360) </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">- 2x finds 115.2 blocks per day (0.8x144) and earns 1440 BTC2x, or $1.44m per day ($1,000 x 1,440)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">In the above case, the revenue stream of both coins is equal, at $1.44m per day. So even though one coin is priced higher, it doesn’t mean miners will necessarily choose
that chain to mine.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Am I missing something?</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Kind regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">-Erik Voorhees<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">CEO ShapeShift AG<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="m8338050251518073641m4732076546785836032airmailon">On October 24, 2017 at 9:58:05 AM, Melvin Carvalho via Bitcoin-segwit2x (<a href="mailto:bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank">bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>)
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 24 October 2017 at 17:47, Moe Adham via Bitcoin-segwit2x <<a href="mailto:bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank">bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Miners need to move their funds into exchanges to sell them. If they can't deposit coins to an exchange, they become valueless.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Assuming an 80-20 split, Block times for the minority chain spike to ~49.3 minutes and will remain that long for ~69 days. This would effectively block the minority chain's functionality as a payment system, as it will become increasingly
impossible to deposit funds, or move them between exchanges (assuming transaction demand remains linear). Miners can prioritize their own transactions in blocks, but regular customers will be left out to dry.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I don't anyone should under-estimate the negative effects of this on market participants.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">A lot of us have customers who expect bitcoin to just "work". If we start telling them they can't spend their money for several days/weeks, the choice of which chain is viable will quickly become clear. It will be neither Bitcoin1x or Bitcoin2x.
It will be a different blockchain altogether.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">(To be clear, Bitaccess is neutral on this fork, we just want customers to remain happy. They way this is going, that doesn't seem to be a likely outcome)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">What typically happens is (shock horror) miners will mine in self interest. If you consider mining as a commodity, it makes sense that they'll just go for the most profitable coin, and not act altruistically,
which was suggested in the original white paper.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Mining is therefore common is a 0% / 100% until fees for a block make it profitable to mine that block (cab take several days) or the difficulty adjusts the profitability.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">This phenomenon is often referred to as "feast and famine".<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Given the market is showing that the 2x coin will be valued under 20% of bitcoin, miners acting in self interest will mine bitcoin and the 2x chain will freeze up, requiring subsidy to mine. Such subsidies could be added by creating a
few transactions with high mining fees.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">--<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;background:white">Moe Adham</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#888888">, MSc, BEng </span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#3D85C6">|</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#7AC143"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#595959">Co-Founder</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#888888"><a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bitaccess.co%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cpekatete%40hotmail.com%7C3d136724459e4e9fb7d508d51afe896b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636444602880254136&sdata=uwRCwm5y2k7pyXBquKjBKDwzuVX6HEiDoEMu8ci20Zo%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">bitaccess.co</span></a></span></b><span style="color:#888888"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#595959">Cell: <u><a href="tel:(858)%20877-3420" target="_blank">+1 858 877 3420</a></u></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 11:36 AM, Phillip Katete via Bitcoin-segwit2x <<a href="mailto:bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank">bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">It is at this point that common sense needs to be applied. Even the most ardent anti SegWit2x upgrade individual would snap up the “airdrop” should there be 2 viable chains post
Nov HF. That in itself is demand enough to have a market for both tokens. The flip side is that with an unusable chain, it matters not whether exchanges respond to user requests for listing as you won’t be able to move your tokens anyway.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b>
<a href="mailto:bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank">Samuel Reed via Bitcoin-segwit2x</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 24 October 2017 16:31<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:dizzle@pointbiz.com" target="_blank">Peter</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank">
Bitcoin Segwit2x</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bitcoin-segwit2x] PROPOSAL: B0RG (Bitcoin zero replay, guarantee) - Ensuring a smooth 2X upgrade without a chain split</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">Another lesson to be learned from BCH is that incentives matter - where miners can sell coins depends on markets, and market prices depend on user and exchange support. Even if the 80%
of miners signaling 2x at this time choose to go forward, if there are not viable markets willing to buy 2x coins at near 1x prices, 2x hash power will quickly revert to the old chain.<br>
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Peter wrote:</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On Oct 24, 2017 10:58 AM, "Chris Stewart via Bitcoin-segwit2x" <<a href="mailto:bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank">bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">>RP that encourages a network split would render the NYA voidable</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">Phillip, if there is consensus on one thing, it is there is going to be a network split. Every exchange is publishing policies for the chain split. Some even saying that they will not
support the segwit2x token.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">-Chris</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">The technical lesson from the BCH fork was that 1 hash = 1 vote. Nothing any exchange (or custodian) said mattered. Indeed because significant sha256 hashpower was deployed towards
the fork it gained value and customers of exchanges pressured the exchanges into the financially sensible decision. </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">This proposal, SegWit2x, is for the miners to decide. </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Transaction selection is not a consensus rule. Any miners that want to go against the Nakamoto signaling is free to do so and the responsible party (not the 2x devs who have no
control over transaction selection). If because of the political climate some miner sees an economic opportunity to resurrect the legacy chain then they can modify their node (without consensus change) to listen to 2x blocks and not mine any transaction IDs
found in the 2x chain. </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Additionally, to complete a safe chain resurrection such a miner can airdrop the mining reward from the forked block (after 100 depth) and send it to to all addresses with UTXOs
over $x value. So that users of the 1x chain can spend the combined UTXOs which cannot be replayed on 2x, as a simple splitting solution. </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Safety efforts which do not require consensus changes should be exhausted first before suggesting consensus changes. </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Regards </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Peter</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">_______________________________________________<br>
Bitcoin-segwit2x mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank">Bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.linuxfoundation.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbitcoin-segwit2x&data=02%7C01%7Cpekatete%40hotmail.com%7C3d136724459e4e9fb7d508d51afe896b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636444602880254136&sdata=hc9TgTGS3CybtPPn9agGGFHOZLeiXhrVL3z%2Fim4XAYc%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-segwit2x</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Bitcoin-segwit2x mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank">Bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.linuxfoundation.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbitcoin-segwit2x&data=02%7C01%7Cpekatete%40hotmail.com%7C3d136724459e4e9fb7d508d51afe896b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636444602880254136&sdata=hc9TgTGS3CybtPPn9agGGFHOZLeiXhrVL3z%2Fim4XAYc%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-segwit2x</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________ <br>
Bitcoin-segwit2x mailing list <br>
<a href="mailto:Bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank">Bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>
<br>
<a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.linuxfoundation.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbitcoin-segwit2x&data=02%7C01%7Cpekatete%40hotmail.com%7C3d136724459e4e9fb7d508d51afe896b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636444602880254136&sdata=hc9TgTGS3CybtPPn9agGGFHOZLeiXhrVL3z%2Fim4XAYc%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-segwit2x</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
Bitcoin-segwit2x mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank">Bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.linuxfoundation.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbitcoin-segwit2x&data=02%7C01%7Cpekatete%40hotmail.com%7C3d136724459e4e9fb7d508d51afe896b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636444602880254136&sdata=hc9TgTGS3CybtPPn9agGGFHOZLeiXhrVL3z%2Fim4XAYc%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-segwit2x</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">-- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888"><br>
John C<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">Bitcoin Error Log<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888"><a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bitcoinerrorlog.com&data=02%7C01%7Cpekatete%40hotmail.com%7C3d136724459e4e9fb7d508d51afe896b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636444602880254136&sdata=TZgHSTVV1E2yI5O6VYYH1G9g1hEOxvITkkuTfcvv6EY%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">www.bitcoinerrorlog.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Bitcoin-segwit2x mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org">Bitcoin-segwit2x@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.linuxfoundation.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbitcoin-segwit2x&data=02%7C01%7Cpekatete%40hotmail.com%7C3d136724459e4e9fb7d508d51afe896b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636444602880254136&sdata=hc9TgTGS3CybtPPn9agGGFHOZLeiXhrVL3z%2Fim4XAYc%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-segwit2x</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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