[Accessibility-ia2] HTML placeholder attribute

James Teh jamie at nvaccess.org
Fri Oct 21 00:17:28 UTC 2016


placeholder-text is fine with me.

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 12:02 AM, Alexander Surkov <
surkov.alexander at gmail.com> wrote:

> Joanie suggested [1] to use 'placeholder-text' name to keep IAccessible2
> and ATK closer. Are there objections?
>
> Having, placeholder for IA2 and placeholder-text for ATK could make life
> harder for implementators, at least it definitely will do in Firefox case.
>
> [1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1303429
>
> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 7:08 PM, James Teh <jamie at nvaccess.org> wrote:
>
>> Visually, placeholder is certainly more like a value than a
>> name/description. However, arguably, it is semantically different to a
>> value in that it's more of a hint for the user as to what to enter there.
>> The reason for the name mapping was partially because it's a nice fallback:
>> having no label at all is probably an authoring error, so it's reasonable
>> to fall back to placeholder.
>>
>> I think I originally supported the description idea, but on further
>> reflection, I'm not so sure this isn't going to cause problems. It just
>> occurred to me that if an author sets title or aria-describedby, that will
>> get mapped to description, thus killing the placeholder. So, we definitely
>> need to expose the placeholder attribute. However, once we have that (plus
>> AT support), we then always have to compare description with placeholder
>> "just in case", which is pretty ugly. Name is different because while no
>> name is probably authoring error, no description certainly isn't.
>>
>> In short, I'd like to propose that we:
>> 1. Expose the placeholder attribute;
>> 2. Keep the current behaviour of falling back to placeholder for name as
>> a last resort;
>> 3. When 1) happens, expose explicit-name:false;
>> 4. Don't ever fall back to placeholder for description.
>>
>> Jamie
>>
>>
>> On 15/09/2016 2:38 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
>>
>> Jamie, do you have objections?
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Brett Lewis <BLewis at vfo-group.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I have always thought of the placeholder more like a value for the edit
>>> field rather than a name or description.
>>>
>>> However, I think the important thing is that we have a mechanism that
>>> allows assistive technology to “know” that the place holder is present and
>>> what the value of the placeholder is.
>>>
>>> Your suggestions accomplish that.
>>>
>>> Brett
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Brett Lewis*
>>>
>>> *VFO* | Software Engineer
>>>
>>> 11800 31st Court North, St. Petersburg, FL 33716
>>>
>>> *T* 727-299-6270
>>>
>>> blewis at vfo-group.com
>>>
>>> www.vfo-group.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Alexander Surkov [mailto:surkov.alexander at gmail.com]
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 13, 2016 1:52 PM
>>> *To:* Brett Lewis <BLewis at vfo-group.com>; James Teh <jamie at nvaccess.org>
>>> *Cc:* Accessibility-ia2 at lists.linux-foundation.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Accessibility-ia2] HTML placeholder attribute
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi, Brett and all.
>>>
>>> There's some discrepancy in the specs between UIA and IAccessible2
>>> mappings. UIA column states [1] that HTML placeholder is mapped to
>>> accessible name and description, while IAccessible2 column says HTML
>>> placeholder has same mapping as aria-placeholder. aria-placeholder is
>>> exposed it in AriaProperties [2] for UIA and as object attribute for
>>> IAccessible2, the generic name computation doesn't mention aria-placeholder
>>> [3].
>>>
>>> Leaving aside the specs, in case of IAccessible2 Firefox does similar
>>> things to UIA. Iirc we agreed [4] to expose placeholder as
>>> name/description, because it requires zero adoption efforts from AT, and
>>> since nobody claimed they need semantics of placeholder.
>>>
>>> If semantics loss is crucial for you, then I think we could fix it by
>>> exposing HTML placeholder this way:
>>>
>>> * name and description as Firefox does (fix the spec to make it clear)
>>>
>>> * expose placeholder object attribute
>>>
>>> * do not expose explicit-name='true' object attribute if placeholder was
>>> used as name
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> aria-placeholder may be left with the current mapping. How does it sound?
>>>
>>>
>>> [1] https://w3c.github.io/aria/html-aam/html-aam.html
>>> [2] http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname-aam.html
>>> [3] https://w3c.github.io/aria/accname-aam/accname-aam.html
>>> [4] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=545817
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Brett Lewis <BLewis at vfo-group.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi All:
>>>
>>> I have been looking at how the HTML placeholder attribute is supported
>>> by IA2.
>>>
>>> According to the HTML accessibility API mappings at:
>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/html-aam-1.0/
>>>
>>> The placeholder in HTML should be handled just like the
>>> aria-placeholder.
>>>
>>> According to the core api accessibility mappings
>>> http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html
>>>
>>> The aria-placeholder is mapped to an Ia2 object attribute of placeholder.
>>>
>>> So, it sounds like the HTML placeholder should be mapped to an IA2
>>> object attribute of placeholder.
>>>
>>> Currently Firefox seems to support the placeholder as the name of the
>>> field if there is no other name provided by the page author (from
>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=545817.
>>>
>>> This seems to contradict the description of aria-placeholder from
>>>
>>> the WAI-ARIA) 1.1 spec at http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mas
>>> ter/aria/aria.html#aria-placeholder
>>>
>>> Says:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> “[ARIA 1.1] Defines a short hint (a word or short phrase) intended to
>>> aid the user with data entry when the control has no value. A hint could be
>>> a sample value or a brief description of the expected format.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Authors should not use aria-placeholder
>>>
>>> instead of a label as their purposes are different: The label indicates
>>> what kind of information is expected. The placeholder text is a hint about
>>> the
>>>
>>> expected value. See related aria-labelledby and aria-label.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Authors should present this hint to the user by displaying the hint text
>>> at any time the control's value is the empty string. This includes cases
>>> where
>>>
>>> the control first receives focus, and when users remove a
>>> previously-entered value.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> NOTE
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As is the case with the related HTML placeholder
>>>
>>> attribute, use of placeholder text as a replacement for a displayed
>>> label can reduce the accessibility and usability of the control for a range
>>> of users
>>>
>>> including older users and users with cognitive, mobility, fine motor
>>> skill or vision impairments. While the hint given by the control's label is
>>> shown
>>>
>>> at all times, the short hint given in the placeholder attribute is only
>>> shown before the user enters a value. Furthermore, placeholder text may be
>>> mistaken for a pre-filled value, and as commonly implemented the default
>>> color of the placeholder text provides insufficient contrast and the lack
>>> of a separate visible label reduces the size of the hit region available
>>> for setting focus on the control.”
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am suggesting that we all agree to present the HTML placeholder just
>>> like the aria-placeholder using the IA2 object attribute of placeholder?
>>>
>>> This provides the most flexibility for screenreaders to present the
>>> placeholder information anyway they see fit.  Using the placeholder as the
>>> name is not as flexible as the screenreader cannot distinguish between the
>>> placeholder and the label in this case.
>>>
>>> What does everyone think?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Brett
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Brett Lewis*
>>>
>>> *VFO* | Software Engineer
>>>
>>> 11800 31st Court North, St. Petersburg, FL 33716
>>>
>>> *T* 727-299-6270
>>>
>>> blewis at vfo-group.com
>>>
>>> www.vfo-group.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Accessibility-ia2 mailing list
>>> Accessibility-ia2 at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> James Teh
>> Executive Director, NV Access Limited
>> Ph +61 7 3149 3306www.nvaccess.org
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>> Twitter: @NVAccess
>> SIP: jamie at nvaccess.org
>>
>>
>
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