[Accessibility-ia2] HTML placeholder attribute
Alexander Surkov
surkov.alexander at gmail.com
Fri Oct 21 17:27:43 UTC 2016
Thank you!
On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 1:26 PM, Joseph Scheuhammer <clown at alum.mit.edu>
wrote:
> Alex,
>
> I've created an issue for the core-aam to make the change [1]. I will
> bring it up at next Tue's telecon to confirm that everyone is on board,
> but based on your email, it looks like the change will be approved.
>
> Thanks.
>
> [1] https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1051
>
> On 2016-10-21 11:37 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
> > Joseph, should we request an update core-aam spec to make this change?
> > anything else?
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 8:17 PM, James Teh <jamie at nvaccess.org
> > <mailto:jamie at nvaccess.org>> wrote:
> >
> > placeholder-text is fine with me.
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 12:02 AM, Alexander Surkov
> > <surkov.alexander at gmail.com <mailto:surkov.alexander at gmail.com>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Joanie suggested [1] to use 'placeholder-text' name to keep
> > IAccessible2 and ATK closer. Are there objections?
> >
> > Having, placeholder for IA2 and placeholder-text for ATK could
> > make life harder for implementators, at least it definitely
> > will do in Firefox case.
> >
> > [1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1303429
> > <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1303429>
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 7:08 PM, James Teh <jamie at nvaccess.org
> > <mailto:jamie at nvaccess.org>> wrote:
> >
> > Visually, placeholder is certainly more like a value than
> > a name/description. However, arguably, it is semantically
> > different to a value in that it's more of a hint for the
> > user as to what to enter there. The reason for the name
> > mapping was partially because it's a nice fallback: having
> > no label at all is probably an authoring error, so it's
> > reasonable to fall back to placeholder.
> >
> > I think I originally supported the description idea, but
> > on further reflection, I'm not so sure this isn't going to
> > cause problems. It just occurred to me that if an author
> > sets title or aria-describedby, that will get mapped to
> > description, thus killing the placeholder. So, we
> > definitely need to expose the placeholder attribute.
> > However, once we have that (plus AT support), we then
> > always have to compare description with placeholder "just
> > in case", which is pretty ugly. Name is different because
> > while no name is probably authoring error, no description
> > certainly isn't.
> >
> > In short, I'd like to propose that we:
> > 1. Expose the placeholder attribute;
> > 2. Keep the current behaviour of falling back to
> > placeholder for name as a last resort;
> > 3. When 1) happens, expose explicit-name:false;
> > 4. Don't ever fall back to placeholder for description.
> >
> > Jamie
> >
> >
> > On 15/09/2016 2:38 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
> >> Jamie, do you have objections?
> >>
> >> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Brett Lewis
> >> <BLewis at vfo-group.com <mailto:BLewis at vfo-group.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I have always thought of the placeholder more like a
> >> value for the edit field rather than a name or
> >> description.
> >>
> >> However, I think the important thing is that we have
> >> a mechanism that allows assistive technology to
> >> “know” that the place holder is present and what the
> >> value of the placeholder is.
> >>
> >> Your suggestions accomplish that.
> >>
> >> Brett
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> *Brett Lewis*
> >>
> >> *VFO*| Software Engineer
> >>
> >> 11800 31^st Court North, St. Petersburg, FL 33716
> >>
> >> *T*727-299-6270 <tel:727-299-6270>
> >>
> >> blewis at vfo-group.com <mailto:blewis at vfo-group.com>
> >>
> >> www.vfo-group.com <http://www.vfo-group.com>__
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> *From:*Alexander Surkov
> >> [mailto:surkov.alexander at gmail.com
> >> <mailto:surkov.alexander at gmail.com>]
> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 13, 2016 1:52 PM
> >> *To:* Brett Lewis <BLewis at vfo-group.com
> >> <mailto:BLewis at vfo-group.com>>; James Teh
> >> <jamie at nvaccess.org <mailto:jamie at nvaccess.org>>
> >> *Cc:* Accessibility-ia2 at lists.linux-foundation.org
> >> <mailto:Accessibility-ia2 at lists.linux-foundation.org>
> >> *Subject:* Re: [Accessibility-ia2] HTML placeholder
> >> attribute
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi, Brett and all.
> >>
> >> There's some discrepancy in the specs between UIA and
> >> IAccessible2 mappings. UIA column states [1] that
> >> HTML placeholder is mapped to accessible name and
> >> description, while IAccessible2 column says HTML
> >> placeholder has same mapping as aria-placeholder.
> >> aria-placeholder is exposed it in AriaProperties [2]
> >> for UIA and as object attribute for IAccessible2, the
> >> generic name computation doesn't mention
> >> aria-placeholder [3].
> >>
> >> Leaving aside the specs, in case of IAccessible2
> >> Firefox does similar things to UIA. Iirc we agreed
> >> [4] to expose placeholder as name/description,
> >> because it requires zero adoption efforts from AT,
> >> and since nobody claimed they need semantics of
> >> placeholder.
> >>
> >> If semantics loss is crucial for you, then I think we
> >> could fix it by exposing HTML placeholder this way:
> >>
> >> * name and description as Firefox does (fix the spec
> >> to make it clear)
> >>
> >> * expose placeholder object attribute
> >>
> >> * do not expose explicit-name='true' object attribute
> >> if placeholder was used as name
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> aria-placeholder may be left with the current
> >> mapping. How does it sound?
> >>
> >>
> >> [1] https://w3c.github.io/aria/html-aam/html-aam.html
> >> <https://w3c.github.io/aria/html-aam/html-aam.html>
> >> [2]
> >> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname-
> aam.html
> >> <http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname-
> aam.html>
> >> [3]
> >> https://w3c.github.io/aria/accname-aam/accname-aam.html
> >> <https://w3c.github.io/aria/
> accname-aam/accname-aam.html>
> >> [4]
> >> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=545817
> >> <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=545817>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Brett Lewis
> >> <BLewis at vfo-group.com <mailto:BLewis at vfo-group.com>>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi All:
> >>
> >> I have been looking at how the HTML placeholder
> >> attribute is supported by IA2.
> >>
> >> According to the HTML accessibility API mappings
> >> at: https://www.w3.org/TR/html-aam-1.0/
> >> <https://www.w3.org/TR/html-aam-1.0/>
> >>
> >> The placeholder in HTML should be handled just
> >> like the aria-placeholder.
> >>
> >> According to the core api accessibility mappings
> >> http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html
> >> <http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html>
> >>
> >> The aria-placeholder is mapped to an Ia2 object
> >> attribute of placeholder.
> >>
> >> So, it sounds like the HTML placeholder should be
> >> mapped to an IA2 object attribute of placeholder.
> >>
> >> Currently Firefox seems to support the
> >> placeholder as the name of the field if there is
> >> no other name provided by the page author (from
> >> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=545817
> >> <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/
> show_bug.cgi?id=545817>.
> >>
> >> This seems to contradict the description of
> >> aria-placeholder from
> >>
> >> the WAI-ARIA) 1.1 spec at
> >> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/
> master/aria/aria.html#aria-placeholder
> >> <http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/
> master/aria/aria.html#aria-placeholder>
> >>
> >> Says:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> “[ARIA 1.1] Defines a short hint (a word or short
> >> phrase) intended to aid the user with data entry
> >> when the control has no value. A hint could be a
> >> sample value or a brief description of the
> >> expected format.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Authors should not use aria-placeholder
> >>
> >> instead of a label as their purposes are
> >> different: The label indicates what kind of
> >> information is expected. The placeholder text is
> >> a hint about the
> >>
> >> expected value. See related aria-labelledby and
> >> aria-label.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Authors should present this hint to the user by
> >> displaying the hint text at any time the
> >> control's value is the empty string. This
> >> includes cases where
> >>
> >> the control first receives focus, and when users
> >> remove a previously-entered value.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> NOTE
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> As is the case with the related HTML placeholder
> >>
> >> attribute, use of placeholder text as a
> >> replacement for a displayed label can reduce the
> >> accessibility and usability of the control for a
> >> range of users
> >>
> >> including older users and users with cognitive,
> >> mobility, fine motor skill or vision impairments.
> >> While the hint given by the control's label is shown
> >>
> >> at all times, the short hint given in the
> >> placeholder attribute is only shown before the
> >> user enters a value. Furthermore, placeholder
> >> text may be mistaken for a pre-filled value, and
> >> as commonly implemented the default color of the
> >> placeholder text provides insufficient contrast
> >> and the lack of a separate visible label reduces
> >> the size of the hit region available for setting
> >> focus on the control.”
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I am suggesting that we all agree to present the
> >> HTML placeholder just like the aria-placeholder
> >> using the IA2 object attribute of placeholder?
> >>
> >> This provides the most flexibility for
> >> screenreaders to present the placeholder
> >> information anyway they see fit. Using the
> >> placeholder as the name is not as flexible as the
> >> screenreader cannot distinguish between the
> >> placeholder and the label in this case.
> >>
> >> What does everyone think?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Brett
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> *Brett Lewis*
> >>
> >> *VFO*| Software Engineer
> >>
> >> 11800 31^st Court North, St. Petersburg, FL 33716
> >>
> >> *T*727-299-6270 <tel:727-299-6270>
> >>
> >> blewis at vfo-group.com <mailto:blewis at vfo-group.com>
> >>
> >> www.vfo-group.com <http://www.vfo-group.com>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Accessibility-ia2 mailing list
> >> Accessibility-ia2 at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> >> <mailto:Accessibility-ia2 at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> >
> >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/
> accessibility-ia2
> >> <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/
> listinfo/accessibility-ia2>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > James Teh
> > Executive Director, NV Access Limited
> > Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306>
> > www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org>
> > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> > <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess>
> > Twitter: @NVAccess
> > SIP: jamie at nvaccess.org <mailto:jamie at nvaccess.org>
> >
> --
> ;;;;joseph.
>
> 'Die Wahrheit ist Irgendwo da Draußen. Wieder.'
> - C. Carter -
>
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