[Accessibility] Revised Minutes for September 1

Janina Sajka janina at rednote.net
Sun Sep 5 07:02:57 PDT 2004

Forwarded on behalf of John who can't post from where he is ...

				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina at freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040

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>From jgoldthwaite at yahoo.com Sat Sep  4 10:11:40 2004
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	Sat, 04 Sep 2004 07:11:34 PDT
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 07:11:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: john goldthwaite <jgoldthwaite at yahoo.com>
Subject: update on Sept 1 minutes
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Status: RO

I didn't realize Harald Fernengel was on the call - he
sent me some of the comments that I missed.

Accessibility Working Group Meeting Sept. 1, 2004 

Doug Beattie
Harald Fernengel 
John Goldthwaite
Bill Haneman
Earl Johnson
Peter Korn 
George Kraft
Janina Sajka 
Gunnar Schmidt
Kris Van Hees
Matthew Wilcox

Gunnar gave a summary of the Unix Accessibility Forum
at KDE Forum.  
Friday was the membership meeting of KDE 
On Saturday, Developer Forum began.  Janina arrived
Saturday.  Two of the KDE accessibility developers
arrived on Saturday evening.   Sunday afternoon was
the first part of the Unix access forum.  3 talks ?
Aaron Levanthal,  Peter Korn,  Harald Fernengel.-
Aaron  - Accessibility on Unix will be 3 years behind
Windows.  ViaVoice will be available in the near
Peter Korn- showed features of GOK and demonstrated
that these features are ahead of what Windows has. 
Harald ? showed preview of Qt4 with Gnopernicus. 
Showed system that used DBUS instead of AT-SPI

On Monday, several talks ? didn?t think they were
relevant for discussion.  Access ended.
On Tuesday, Gunnar and his brother joined the
usability forum.  There were discussions about writing
guidelines for KDE developers.  Decided 3 tightly
coupled documents were needed.
1- Community integration guidelines- which fonts
should be used when doing screen shots when
2 ? Usability guide ? points the developer should look
for when developing applications and the reasoning
behind them. 
3 ? Accessibility guideline ? points for developers
and the reasoning behind them.  
4 ? Checklist ? point to references in other 3

KDE work summit went on until the weekend.  

Harald-  The concern is that CORBA is a dead end for
the desktop, both GNOME and KDE are moving to D-BUS,
which is already a freedesktop.org standard. The 
dependencies orbit2 and AT-SPI introduce is hard to
cope even for commercial 
Bill- to achieve all of are goals we?d end up with
having to implement something like CORBA.
Harald ? orbit
Bill- Dbus doesn?t meet the need.  The
Harald ? how to handle metadata ? for situations like
language switches
Bill ? we need to have these discussions in the
working group.  We have this in ATK 
Harald-   I suggested transferring text as XML with
inlined meta-data,
Bill- that?s part of the attribution API.  Anything in
CSF is supported already.-

Bill- I hope that Aaron is incorrect,  I?m concerned
about the DBUS discussion.  The reason for having this
working group is to have consensus on cross toolkit
solutions.  There was a Open Desktop accessibility
working group and they decided to adopt Gnome methods.
 It is a difficult for us working on different
companies,  we have to look at the big picture.  I?m
glad to see the interest in accessibility guidelines
in KDE, but why aren?t these Open Desktop documents
that could be used by all the desktops?   Is there a
reason that we can?t adopt the Gnome guidelines?  We
have to work on technical consensus?  

Janina- we need to have a discussion about how we do
that.  It seems that Accessibility isn?t active in
Open Desktop.  Things look good for the meeting in
January where we can work on this.
Earl- what was the problem
Bill- Gunnar gave an informative report about the KDE
forum.  It sounded like the KDE forum is proposing to
repeat Gnome ?
Peter-  They were not trying to set up something
exclusionary, that?s why they were called it the Unix
Accessibility Forum.  
Bill- It doesn?t seem the KDE development is happening
in a free desktop space.
Peter- how do
Harald - we need something that defines our existing
guidelines.   We?re trying to move the existing
product and merge the Gnome standards to come to a
common standard.
Janina- I thought the emphasis was on how to be
interoperate and not be competitive.  How to do that
will take some time.  This seems to be a developers
process within the KDE community to get specific
guidance on accessibility.  That could help us to move
to a more unified effort under free desktop.  I hope
we?re not missing things in translations
Bill- once that task is done for KDE,  there is less
motivation to take it to the next step of creating a
shared document.  If we try to create that it might
lead to some consensus.
Harald- KDE is creating its own Interface Guidelines,
that's a community process to define KDE. Our job is
to find a consensus between the GNOME HIG and the KDE 
HIG and move it to freedesktop.org

Bill- free desktop documents take effort to define,
I?m not saying KDE? , the guidelines have to be
Janina- we have much of this effort in our roadmap. 
We need to have a discussion for next week to see how
we can get that.  Develop more specific proposals on
how to move forward? names of who does what? free
desktop is a 
Bill- it?s a very informal organization.  It?s a
resource issue.

Peter- my impression was that Qt4 was very much ATK
based.  He?d done some investigation with DBUS.
Harald -. ?. Would lower overhead for the AT
applications, there are fewer dependencies.
Bill- that may be okay in the long term but ?
Peter ? job 1 is to get this first release out and
serving people.  I agree we should be focusing on
that.  (something about DBUS)
Bill- it would take a new generation of DBUS to meet
our needs.  
Peter- it will take the sorts of investigations Harald
is doing to find out.  
 -question about Aaron Leventhal?s statement about
being 3 years behind Microsoft.
George- I though Aaron made a broad generalization.  I
think Peter made a good point about being ahead on

Bill ? is he asserting that we?re 3 years behind
Microsoft or that it will take 3 years to get Linux
George ? I think he was saying it will be 3 years to
get all the features.
Peter-  Aaron has spent all his time on the blind
issues.  I think that the GUI desktop issues for
Gnopernicus have more problems and may be 3 years
Janina- I think its devaluing the console environment.
 Coming from a Windows standpoint your it does look
like .  We all are learning from each other what
doesn?t work.    I hope he spends more time working on
Mozilla in our environment.   Microsoft has announced
a tentative release for Longhorn in 2006, is it
reasonable to set a goal to have accessibility in
shipping Linux distributions by 2006?
Peter-  when we get into discussion  - from the users
standpoint it?s a distribution issue but that gets
into the competitive area.  May muddy things 
Janina- We need to get our work done far enough ahead
so that firms can get it into the distributions.  Does
that sound like a possible date?
Peter- seems like a useful goal

Janina- I?d like to update on the NSF proposal.   
What?s the status on the paperwork?
John- I checked with Jim Zemin at FSG this morning. 
He has a new secretary, Janet Sun and he asked her to
work on that last week.  He thought she had completed
it but needed to check with her to make sure; she was
out of the office this morning.  I?ll check with him
late today.  Ephraim Glinert at NSF said we need to
get it in quickly so that they can fund the project
with money from this fiscal year (Sept. 30).  

Janina ? In organizing  for the conference, we need to
go through the NSF proposal and make a list of action
items.  Then we can discuss this next week.   We had
some good meetings at the KDE forum but everyone
wasn?t there,  e.g. the speech folks.    We need to
let people know that our conference will be occurring
so they can get it on their calendars.
Matthew- some people will not come because its in the
Bill- the funding agency will only fund travel to the
US, we need to look at videoconferencing so those
people can still participate.  
Janina- we did budget for that and we have facilities
that should be able to handle it.  We?d be happy to
have the meeting somewhere else but we?re limited by
the funding.  We?ll definitely need to have additional
meetings so we should plan on that being funded by a
source that is less restrictive.
Kris- can tack onto one of the accessibility
conferences in Europe next year?
Peter ?  REHA?
Janina- there?s also LSM ? next year in Dijon  
I?ll go through the proposal and pull out the time
line and we can discuss it next week.
Sub teams?  Anything from the KBD group?
Earl ? no vacations intervened

Janina- Daisy has recognized the need to define a
standard to allow someone to open encrypted content. 
It can be done now but you have to sign a NDA.
Bill- we have the problem with MP3 also.  No way to
implement a public domain Daisy reader.
Janina- Should they leave mp3 in favor of auk?   We
seem to be running into the same problem from several
directions.  We have the same issues with the
differences over the Java licenses.  Daisy is amenable
to seeing if auk will work as well as mp3.
Bill- if you look at some of the specialize codecs for
voice, it should appeal to them.  The space saving

Bill- it would be possible to do a open source daisy
reader if your system has some other mp3 reader but?  
  The mp3 problem is a big practical problem.

Janina- yes its appreciated within the Daisy
consortium. Some of the US interested in trying to
keep thing locked up but most are interested in open
Bill- the reader examples that are on the web are all
exe?s that are self-extracting zip.
Peter- they are Windows binaries.
Janina- the move to develop new products looks like
they will create dependencies on Microsoft?s XML.  
The spec is public domain like the w3c and based on
w3c technologies.  Version 1 was closed and got
burned.  Version 2 is open but they had the tools
developed by a propriety firm so they are now very
interested in open source for everything.
Matthew ? copyright says it is public domain but then
list a number of restrictions.
Bill- there are jurisdictions where public domain
where those restrictions would apply.
Janina- they are trying to get funding to get that
started by January.

Our next meeting is . September 8th, 18:00 UTC

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