[Accessibility] Accessibility Minutes for August 23

John Goldthwaite jgoldthwaite at yahoo.com
Wed Aug 30 08:29:57 PDT 2006


Hi folks,  here are the minutes from last week.  We did not have a recording so I wasn't able to fill in the blanks particularly in the dbus and kde discussions.  I've entered a question mark at several of those spots.  Thanks,

8/23/06 FSG Accessibility meeting notes        .
Attending:        
            
Gunnar Schmidt
Olaf Schmidt
Bill Hanaman
Janina Sajka
John Goldthwaite
Aaron Leventhal
David
Cathy Laws
Larry Weiss
George Kraft
Peter Korn

Draft minutes from Aug. 2 posted.  George created a table in the website for all the minutes and agendas for easy access.  No corrections, Aug 2 minutes approved.
Olaf- I posted a mail message from LSB list on standardized setting for colors.  How to best deal with it?
Peter- that is a good segway to the Gnome conference in Boston in Oct.; that would be a good topic to discuss at that meeting.
Aaron-Firefox 3 - Peter Fuentes is looking into fixes.  Backspace bug, hyperlink bug, 
Need to pull atk header into Mozilla source code tree.  Will have accessible name for window, library needs to be upgraded.  Major item left is getting the collection work done.  It should be ready for AT vendors to check out.
Janina- are these in a separate build?
Aaron- it will be in the main version of Mozilla 3.  It is not in Mozilla 2, not stable.  Developer preview version should be available.
Peter-
Aaron-

Bill- Gunnar and Olaf, you are going to be at the confederation meeting?  We could meet there to talk about the settings to prepare for the Gnome meeting.
Olaf - will be there. Will conduct a session on user interaction.  I will put that on the agenda for the HCI.
Olaf- Gary Carbit of Trolltech is working on at-spi support for atk4.  Interoperable with existing gnome technologies.  Looking to see if can use the ADL compiler of   working on developing dbus bindings directly from the ADL.  Will need to look at activation, how to 
Bill- I wasn’t aware Gary was working on that.  
Olaf- he wasn’t talking to any lists, just with .  I will make sure he gets you in the loop.
Janina- we would have a teleconference 1 hour before the regular conference to talk kde and dbus with Harrald.  We tried to set it up for today but that didn’t work out.  This all happened within the last two hours.
Bill- it is great to hear that he is looking at the ADL compiler but we need to be sure it is all expressible in dbus.
Gunnar-
Bill- a few people have looked at dbus before and their comments were mostly negative.  One person might see a technical obstacle but other might see ways around that.
Olaf- dcon settings, activating the registry, may be getting to things that aren’t working
Bill- already planning to change the way activation works in AT-SPI for our own reasons.
Janina- if people want to discuss this before next week should they used the AT-SPI list?
Bill- yes, could use ..
Bill- do you know if Gary will be in Dubin?
Olaf- I think so but I will check with him.

Peter- every year the Gnome community meets in Boston.  It was suggested to have an accessibility day.  Aaron suggested a Mozilla hackfest afterward.  Around October 7-9 and into the next week.  The 9th may be the accessibility day.  Will have several people from SUN Accessibiltiy and Mozilla Accessibility.
Aaron- this will be working with the screenreader developers to fix the bugs. Mozilla foundation will send someone working on OS10 accessibility.  Will talk about how cache nodes and other internal stuff works.  Want to turn that over.  Sun tester not coming.  Need to talk about testing in the Mozilla trunk code.  Its good that ldtp folks.  Tim from Sun and Wayne from IBM to work closely together on the testing.

Janina- on Keyboard we are waiting for an analysis from Bill on some of the questions that were raised.  
Bill- Not complete yet, 
Janina- looking for someone to take the lead from Earl.  Earl won’t be able to continue with the lead in September.  If someone has an interest in that please contact me or Earl.  Or if you have someone to suggest, contact me.

Bill- I don’t have any questions on AT-SPI planned for today.  2.16 is closed and we should be able to get back to issues that were differed.  Looking at ~2.16IDL - I haven’t been updating that. Use xx to build and trying.  That is test area and not a spot for documentation.  

One of the worries the KDE team has had, if we move forward with LSB conformance testing, it will make life difficult for KDE in the future.  Is there anything we can do in our discussions to head off a problem in that area?  
Olaf- the discussion was whether conformance would be something within accessibility only or if it would be a ABI conformance standard.  Allow different ways of allowing conformance testing.
Bill- any conformance testing would have to have an ABI.  I was envisioning- the IDL is normative, here is one way to validate against the IDL. Then this is how to submit an additional IDL for testing.  
Olaf- if take the IDL test based on ? 2, it is almost impossible to move it in a clean way to dbus. The ABI generated is too CORBA specific.
Bill- yes, anything it generated would be CORBA.  As far as dcom and the activation, I’d be in favor of excluding parts from the conformance test.   Would not assume there was any activation component yet        .  I’d be concerned about the  
George- some people like to call reference library where LSB is ABI test.  Activation is not part of the ABI, would not test activation or gcomp, just the   You are not getting “accidental standardization” only explication.  Want standardization coming from document.  Here is a live SPI conformance test.  If activation isn’t defined in the doc., it wouldn’t be tested.
Olaf- if we use IDL for CORBA, different can interoperate.  But if ? for dbus, they cannot interoperate.
Bill- you would need brand new technology or have all of your relevant technologies able to use one of the backends.  Why did Harrald move away from the dbus work?
Olaf- wont work with qt, would not give us a full solution, just half way.
Bill- if you had to prioritize, making work with orca,  
Olaf- we have some of them planned but they are held back by not having solutions.  
The tendency in KDE is to use dbus every where.
Bill- many have marked Bonobo as deprecated but haven’t ported much of it to kde.  If we had ? it would make it easier to move to dbus.  QT .. If exported to atk, we would have a relatively quick move to accessibility.  Then the problem of finding suitable client binding in kde for AT would come later.  If it is going to happen soon it is one thing, if 18 months it is another.
Olaf- my understanding that it would be in QT4.  Trolltech didn’t want to do the work twice.  Wanted to see about handling Gnome technology
Bill- designed as an in-process API.  The bridge from the in-process to the IPC would on ?
If they wrote to ATK they wouldn’t have to do it twice.
Olaf- didn’t convince Trolltech that it was the strategy.
Bill- what can this group do to improve the situation and streamline things to be sure we can interoperate.
Janina- I can see why we needed the conversation with Harrald today rather than next week.
The good news is that we do have a time set to talk to Harrald, hopefully we’re not too far down the road.
Bill- I would be interested in hearing what Gary had to say if he would be comfortable sharing that.
Olaf- I’ll send him a note and see if he can join us next week.  His viewpoint is different from Harrald’s, Harrald is looking at the middle way which might have problems.

Janina- will met same time next week.  If you are interested in the dbus conversation join us one hour earlier.


        



8/23/06 FSG Accessibility meeting notes        .
Attending:        
            
Gunnar Schmidt
Olaf Schmidt
Bill Hanaman
Janina Sajka
John Goldthwaite
Aaron Leventhal
David
Cathy Laws
Larry Weiss
George Kraft
Peter Korn

Draft minutes from Aug. 2 posted.  George created a table in the website for all the minutes and agendas for easy access.  No corrections, Aug 2 minutes approved.
Olaf- I posted a mail message from LSB list on standardized setting for colors.  How to best deal with it?
Peter- that is a good segway to the Gnome conference in Boston in Oct.; that would be a good topic to discuss at that meeting.
Aaron-Firefox 3 - Peter Fuentes is looking into fixes.  Backspace bug, hyperlink bug, 
Need to pull atk header into Mozilla source code tree.  Will have accessible name for window, library needs to be upgraded.  Major item left is getting the collection work done.  It should be ready for AT vendors to check out.
Janina- are these in a separate build?
Aaron- it will be in the main version of Mozilla 3.  It is not in Mozilla 2, not stable.  Developer preview version should be available.
Peter-
Aaron-

Bill- Gunnar and Olaf, you are going to be at the confederation meeting?  We could meet there to talk about the settings to prepare for the Gnome meeting.
Olaf - will be there. Will conduct a session on user interaction.  I will put that on the agenda for the HCI.
Olaf- Gary Carbit of Trolltech is working on at-spi support for atk4.  Interoperable with existing gnome technologies.  Looking to see if can use the ADL compiler of   working on developing dbus bindings directly from the ADL.  Will need to look at activation, how to 
Bill- I wasn’t aware Gary was working on that.  
Olaf- he wasn’t talking to any lists, just with .  I will make sure he gets you in the loop.
Janina- we would have a teleconference 1 hour before the regular conference to talk kde and dbus with Harrald.  We tried to set it up for today but that didn’t work out.  This all happened within the last two hours.
Bill- it is great to hear that he is looking at the ADL compiler but we need to be sure it is all expressible in dbus.
Gunnar-
Bill- a few people have looked at dbus before and their comments were mostly negative.  One person might see a technical obstacle but other might see ways around that.
Olaf- dcon settings, activating the registry, may be getting to things that aren’t working
Bill- already planning to change the way activation works in AT-SPI for our own reasons.
Janina- if people want to discuss this before next week should they used the AT-SPI list?
Bill- yes, could use ..
Bill- do you know if Gary will be in Dubin?
Olaf- I think so but I will check with him.

Peter- every year the Gnome community meets in Boston.  It was suggested to have an accessibility day.  Aaron suggested a Mozilla hackfest afterward.  Around October 7-9 and into the next week.  The 9th may be the accessibility day.  Will have several people from SUN Accessibiltiy and Mozilla Accessibility.
Aaron- this will be working with the screenreader developers to fix the bugs. Mozilla foundation will send someone working on OS10 accessibility.  Will talk about how cache nodes and other internal stuff works.  Want to turn that over.  Sun tester not coming.  Need to talk about testing in the Mozilla trunk code.  Its good that ldtp folks.  Tim from Sun and Wayne from IBM to work closely together on the testing.

Janina- on Keyboard we are waiting for an analysis from Bill on some of the questions that were raised.  
Bill- Not complete yet, 
Janina- looking for someone to take the lead from Earl.  Earl won’t be able to continue with the lead in September.  If someone has an interest in that please contact me or Earl.  Or if you have someone to suggest, contact me.

Bill- I don’t have any questions on AT-SPI planned for today.  2.16 is closed and we should be able to get back to issues that were differed.  Looking at ~2.16IDL - I haven’t been updating that. Use xx to build and trying.  That is test area and not a spot for documentation.  

One of the worries the KDE team has had, if we move forward with LSB conformance testing, it will make life difficult for KDE in the future.  Is there anything we can do in our discussions to head off a problem in that area?  
Olaf- the discussion was whether conformance would be something within accessibility only or if it would be a ABI conformance standard.  Allow different ways of allowing conformance testing.
Bill- any conformance testing would have to have an ABI.  I was envisioning- the IDL is normative, here is one way to validate against the IDL. Then this is how to submit an additional IDL for testing.  
Olaf- if take the IDL test based on ? 2, it is almost impossible to move it in a clean way to dbus. The ABI generated is too CORBA specific.
Bill- yes, anything it generated would be CORBA.  As far as dcom and the activation, I’d be in favor of excluding parts from the conformance test.   Would not assume there was any activation component yet        .  I’d be concerned about the  
George- some people like to call reference library where LSB is ABI test.  Activation is not part of the ABI, would not test activation or gcomp, just the   You are not getting “accidental standardization” only explication.  Want standardization coming from document.  Here is a live SPI conformance test.  If activation isn’t defined in the doc., it wouldn’t be tested.
Olaf- if we use IDL for CORBA, different can interoperate.  But if ? for dbus, they cannot interoperate.
Bill- you would need brand new technology or have all of your relevant technologies able to use one of the backends.  Why did Harrald move away from the dbus work?
Olaf- wont work with qt, would not give us a full solution, just half way.
Bill- if you had to prioritize, making work with orca,  
Olaf- we have some of them planned but they are held back by not having solutions.  
The tendency in KDE is to use dbus every where.
Bill- many have marked Bonobo as deprecated but haven’t ported much of it to kde.  If we had ? it would make it easier to move to dbus.  QT .. If exported to atk, we would have a relatively quick move to accessibility.  Then the problem of finding suitable client binding in kde for AT would come later.  If it is going to happen soon it is one thing, if 18 months it is another.
Olaf- my understanding that it would be in QT4.  Trolltech didn’t want to do the work twice.  Wanted to see about handling Gnome technology
Bill- designed as an in-process API.  The bridge from the in-process to the IPC would on ?
If they wrote to ATK they wouldn’t have to do it twice.
Olaf- didn’t convince Trolltech that it was the strategy.
Bill- what can this group do to improve the situation and streamline things to be sure we can interoperate.
Janina- I can see why we needed the conversation with Harrald today rather than next week.
The good news is that we do have a time set to talk to Harrald, hopefully we’re not too far down the road.
Bill- I would be interested in hearing what Gary had to say if he would be comfortable sharing that.
Olaf- I’ll send him a note and see if he can join us next week.  His viewpoint is different from Harrald’s, Harrald is looking at the middle way which might have problems.

Janina- will met same time next week.  If you are interested in the dbus conversation join us one hour earlier.


        






John Goldthwaite
jgoldthwaite at yahoo.com
828 885-5304
 		
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