[Bitcoin-segwit2x] PROPOSAL: B0RG (Bitcoin zero replay, guarantee) - Ensuring a smooth 2X upgrade without a chain split

Jacob Eliosoff jacob.eliosoff at gmail.com
Wed Oct 25 01:00:31 UTC 2017


I wouldn't assume that "clearly very detrimental to the future utility of
Bitcoin" is much of a disincentive to double-spend attacks, or much
reassurance to an exchange risking one, particularly where "Bitcoin" =
"one, minority-hash branch of Bitcoin".  The persistent attacks on Ethereum
last year (replay, then gas pricing exploits) show that when attacks are
feasible, it's fairly likely some schmuck will employ them.  Eg in the
extreme case where hashrate is split 99%/1%, we can probably agree
accepting payments on the 1% chain is unwise.

That said - 99/1 seems implausible to me, and as long as both chains have
nontrivial (>5%?) support, my *guess* is Alex is right that double-spends
(or, more likely, empty-/bad-block attacks) are unlikely.


On Oct 24, 2017 8:42 PM, "Alex Morcos via Bitcoin-segwit2x" <
bitcoin-segwit2x at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

If we start seeing 6-block deep reorgs because miners are attempting to
pull off a double-spend attack then I think the fundamental economic
incentives of Bitcoin will be shown to have failed and we might as well all
go home.  It's somewhat reasonable to come to differing opinions on what's
long term economically rational for miners as to which fork to mine, but
it's clearly very detrimental to the future utility of Bitcoin to try
double spend attacks.  I'm quite confident we will not see that.



On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 8:11 PM, Vinny Lingham via Bitcoin-segwit2x <
bitcoin-segwit2x at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> I’d love to get a sense of what the hash rate threshold will be for
> exchanges to stop accepting 1x coin, even with 6 confirmations? With the
> risk of a selfish mining attack increasing the lower the 1x hashrate is,
> why would an exchange accept the coins knowing that someone could be double
> spending across multiple exchanges?
>
> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2127697.0
>
> I’m just trying to understand this attack vector better... I haven’t heard
> a good response to this question yet - would really appreciate some insight
> here. This is largely why I believe hashrate secures the network and why
> I’ve been against the UASF.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Oct 24, 2017, at 13:26, Erik Aronesty via Bitcoin-segwit2x <
> bitcoin-segwit2x at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> At this point *either* chain can be the "legacy" chain.   Most exchanges
> are going to support both coins.   Coinbase's announcement that 2x will be
> initially called B2X was big (they reserve the right to rename it later).
>
> Users will be thus be free to dump either coin according to their personal
> feelings on the matter.
>
> Hashpower is probably not going to be a consideration for the majority of
> holders.   At the end of the day... if users dump 1x, miners will jump on
> 2x, and if users dump 2x, miners will jump on 1x.
>
> Trying to predict what investors and users will do is really not
> "politics".   It's pure speculation.   And basing any real decisions off
> "hashpower signaling" is patently absurd.
>
> In other words:
>
>  - This is a risky proposition either way
>  - There is no reasonable way to predict the outcome
>
> Anyone who claims otherwise is probably entrenched in a particular "camp",
> and isn't thinking rationally about the current situation.
>
> (Personally, I'm simply going to dump on the first day... regardless of
> the price and based on my preference.  I suspect I'm in the minority here.)
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 4:16 PM, Phillip Katete via Bitcoin-segwit2x <
> bitcoin-segwit2x at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately, it is a double whammy for the legacy chain.
>>
>>
>>
>> Despite there being a general assumption that the legacy chain will have
>> at least 20% of the current network hash, it’s going to be less than that
>> and more likely the majority of that hash will mine coinbase only blocks in
>> order to stall the chain. The closer the attack happens to the fork time
>> (and therefore unknown block times & mempool), the more potent the attack
>> as the fees will still be low relative to when block times are more
>> accurately predicted and mempool settled.
>>
>>
>>
>> Once confirmation times on the legacy chain become unusually long (and
>> the price begins to tend to reflect that), then attackers can abandon the
>> chain and the ardent legacy miners will also start divesting/splitting
>> their hash to the 2x chain.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Peter BitcoinReminder.com via Bitcoin-segwit2x
>> <bitcoin-segwit2x at lists.linuxfoundation.org>
>> *Sent: *24 October 2017 20:41
>> *To: *Erik Voorhees <erik at shapeshift.io>
>> *Cc: *Melvin Carvalho via Bitcoin-segwit2x
>> <bitcoin-segwit2x at lists.linuxfoundation.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Bitcoin-segwit2x] PROPOSAL: B0RG (Bitcoin zero replay,
>> guarantee) - Ensuring a smooth 2X upgrade without a chain split
>>
>>
>>
>> You are also missing the point that many people dont use bitcoin for
>> payments - but as store of value - so they don’t care if there are long
>> confirmation times (or even none in one week!) - you only see it from the
>> payment/transaction side, but this is not the case for many people which
>> are motivated to stay and fight for bitcoin.
>>
>>
>>
>> Open your mind - there are many people which give a shit about
>> confirmation times and fees.
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 24.10.2017 um 21:04 schrieb Erik Voorhees via Bitcoin-segwit2x <
>> bitcoin-segwit2x at lists.linuxfoundation.org>:
>>
>>
>>
>> Peter - I disagree that 1x won’t have a market price. Exchanges can turn
>> off all deposits and withdraws completely for a week and you’ll still see
>> markets of both coins working, because there is already 1x and 2x in the
>> exchanges (in large quantities).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> -Erik Voorhees
>>
>> CEO ShapeShift AG
>>
>>
>>
>> On October 24, 2017 at 12:59:28 PM, Peter (dizzle at pointbiz.com) wrote:
>>
>> I agree the minority chain will quickly grind to a halt. Pure SPV users
>> will just want Bitcoin to work as Moe indicated. They won't know if they
>> are on the 1x or 2x chain but what they will know is Bitcoin (BTC) still
>> works and in 1 day 2x (BTC) will pass 100 blocks and have a market price
>> and be usable by exchanges globally. The 1x chain will not have a market
>> price for 5 days because it didn't reach the 100 block milestone to enable
>> deposits and coin splitting. In that time it can die out. Also, it's likely
>> to take an extra week or so for exchanges to get all their coin splitting
>> transactions confirmed by mixing with 1x coinbases. Honeybadger won't care
>> much and people won't want to say 1x is BTC because then they have to admit
>> BTC had a 1 or 2 week service interruption.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sorry if this is not technical enough for the list.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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