[Chaoss-software] [Oss-health-metrics] [CoC working group] Invite to Code of Conduct working group

Wed Nov 15 19:46:49 UTC 2017

Jesus,

You raise an important point about how different cultures will feel about being advised not to engage in unacceptable behaviors.  

I know in the US we are specifically concerned about harassment of female contributors and the extradorinaiy imbalance between men and women on many projects (which many, including me, interpret as a side effect of reasonable human beings choosing not to “put up with shit.”). Other dimensions of diversity and inclusion are of course also important. But it is the case that at least historically, women experience a lot more direct, unacceptable behavior than men.    

I cannot speak to other cultures, of course, so I definitely want to know if the language in the GitHub codes of conduct would be problematic across cultures. 

Everyone: Please accept my apologies for not being particularly sophisticated about how I communicate about complex, nuanced issues. I am happy for this discussion to become one we all learn from. 

Thanks, 

Sean 

> On Nov 15, 2017, at 1:23 PM, Jesus M. Gonzalez-Barahona <jgb at bitergia.com <mailto:jgb at bitergia.com>> wrote:
> 
> From my point of view, listing unacceptable behaviors is not a problem.
> But a CoC could also list laudable behaviors. Or something that makes
> it clear that the CoC is that, a code of how to behave, and not some
> unwelcoming rules that seem to assume most of the people in the
> community don't know how to behave and need explicit guidance in topics
> that from many points of view seem obvious.
> 
> I'm sorry, maybe this is due to my cultural background, but approaching
> a community which tries to explain me how to behave, assuming I don't
> know (and specially with very obvious recommendations), makes me feel
> unwelcome. I rather prefer they assume I'm a good person, and encourage
> me with recommendations that show an open spirit.
> 
> All this said, I know this is a matter of balance, and listings of
> unacceptable behaviors are there for a reason. If you all agree with
> what we decided yesterday, let's just have our personal balance in mind
> when we analyze the proposed CoCs.
> 
> Saludos,
> 
> 	Jesus.
> 
> On Wed, 2017-11-15 at 10:56 -0800, Raymond Paik wrote:
>> OpenStack takes a similar approach.  It's mostly aspirational, but
>> also lists unacceptable behaviors.
>> 
>> See: https://www.openstack.org/legal/community-code-of-conduct/ <https://www.openstack.org/legal/community-code-of-conduct/> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 9:49 AM, Sean Goggins <s at goggins.com <mailto:s at goggins.com>> wrote:
>>> Hi All:
>>> 
>>> I agree in general with the principle of keeping statements
>>> positive. I do not know, however, if “staying positive” is an act
>>> of not acknowledging the most common unacceptable behaviors
>>> experienced historically in open source software projects.  
>>> 
>>> I do not have answers, just a question.  GitHub is using 2
>>> different terms of services templates now, and these may be worth
>>> considering. 
>>> 
>>> One is the contributor covenant: 
>>> 
>>> https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/1/4/code-of-conduct.ht <https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/1/4/code-of-conduct.ht>
>>> ml
>>> 
>>> The other is the citizen code of conduct:
>>> 
>>> http://citizencodeofconduct.org/
>>> 
>>> Both enumerate historically unacceptable behaviors.  
>>> 
>>> My opinion is that GitHub is working hard to set the standard for
>>> inclusivity in open source projects by making these code of conduct
>>> templates available for all their projects now.  
>>> 
>>> I ask that we consider the possibility that explicitly noting
>>> historically problematic behaviors might be viewed positively by
>>> folks who have had to deal with them. 
>>> 
>>> Thanks!
>>> 
>>> Sean 
>>> 
>>>> On Nov 15, 2017, at 9:14 AM, Raymond Paik <rpaik at linuxfoundation.
>>>> org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks that makes sense and agree :-)
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 5:26 AM, Georg Link <glink at unomaha.edu>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Thanks, Ray and Jesus. I have nothing to add. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 3:02 AM, Jesus M. Gonzalez-Barahona <jg
>>>>> b at bitergia.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 2017-11-14 at 21:48 -0800, Raymond Paik wrote:
>>>>>>> Thanks Georg....  Sorry I could not be at the meeting.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> A clarifying question on one of the items.  When you say
>>>>>> "digital", I
>>>>>>> assume that means the CoC not only cover behaviors at in-
>>>>>> person
>>>>>>> events/events (in physical spaces), but also behaviors
>>>>>> online (e-
>>>>>>> mail, conference calls, etc.)?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Yes. In fact, that "digital behaviour" is more important for
>>>>>> us that
>>>>>> "in-place", since the former would be far more frequent.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This comes in part from the fact that, due maybe to
>>>>>> historical reasons,
>>>>>> some CoC could seem designed for in-place situations, with
>>>>>> only some
>>>>>> mentions or "extensions" for digital situations.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>        Jesus
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Oss-health-metrics mailing list
>>>> Oss-health-metrics at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/oss-health-met
>>>> rics
>>> 
>>> Sean P. Goggins
>>> Associate Professor, Computer Science
>>> Director, Data Science and Analytics Masters Program
>>> University of Missouri
>>> http://www.seangoggins.net
>>> 
>>> Computer Science:  http://engineering.missouri.edu/cs/ 
>>> Data Science & Analytics: http://dsa.missouri.edu 
>>> MU Informatics Institute http://muii.missouri.edu 
>>> visit: http://www.sociotech.net
>>> visit: http://osshealth.io (for ghdata OSS Metrics
>>> Software) [Sloan Foundation]
>>> visit: http://chaoss.community (for open source health
>>> metrics) [Sloan Foundation]
>>> visit: http://mhs.missouri.edu (for mission hydro sci!) [i3 & IES]
>>> visit: http://ocdx.io (for the open collaboration data exchange!) 
>>> [National Science Foundation]
>>> visit: http://sociallycompute.io (for code like things
>>> and Group Informatics) [National Science Foundation]
>>> ‌‌
>>> "I finally comprehended the difference between critical thinking
>>> and its opposite.  Technical people are not dumb, quite the
>>> contrary, but technical curricula rarely include critical
>>> thinking in the sense I have in mind.  Critical thinking means that
>>> you can, so to speak, see your glasses.  You can look at the world,
>>> or you can back up and look at the framework of concepts
>>> and assumptions and practices *through* which you look at the
>>> world."
>>> -- Phil Agre, http://wtf.tw/ref/agre.html
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
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> -- 
> Bitergia: http://bitergia.com <http://bitergia.com/>
> /me at Twitter: https://twitter.com/jgbarah <https://twitter.com/jgbarah>
> 
> _______________________________________________
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Sean P. Goggins
Associate Professor, Computer Science
Director, Data Science and Analytics Masters Program
University of Missouri
http://www.seangoggins.net <http://www.seangoggins.net/>

Computer Science:  http://engineering.missouri.edu/cs/  <http://engineering.missouri.edu/cs/>
Data Science & Analytics: http://dsa.missouri.edu <http://dsa.missouri.edu/> 
MU Informatics Institute http://muii.missouri.edu <http://muii.missouri.edu/> 
visit: http://www.sociotech.net <http://www.sociotech.net/>
visit: http://osshealth.io <http://osshealth.io/> (for ghdata OSS Metrics Software) [Sloan Foundation]
visit:  <http://chaoss.community/> <http://chaoss.community/>http://c <http://c/>haoss.community (for open source health metrics) [Sloan Foundation]
visit: http://mhs.missouri.edu <http://mhs.missouri.edu/> (for mission hydro sci!) [i3 & IES]
visit: http://ocdx.io <http://ocdx.io/> (for the open collaboration data exchange!)   [National Science Foundation]
visit: http://sociallycompute.io <http://sociallycompute.io/> (for code like things and Group Informatics) [National Science Foundation]

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
-- Margaret Mead

"It may be that openness is a bad choice for communities, but it's a great choice for groups that want to span, not colonize. Span, not colonize. Include, not exclude. Learn from, not teach at."
-- Steve Sawyer with Tony Salvador 

‌‌"I finally comprehended the difference between critical thinking and its opposite.  Technical people are not dumb, quite the contrary, but technical curricula rarely include critical thinking in the sense I have in mind.  Critical thinking means that you can, so to speak, see your glasses.  You can look at the world, or you can back up and look at the framework of concepts and assumptions and practices *through* which you look at the world."
-- Phil Agre, http://wtf.tw/ref/agre.html <http://wtf.tw/ref/agre.html>
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