[CHAOSS] How decisions are made (was: Opening discussion on using Discourse Forum for CHAOSS)

Georg Link glink at unomaha.edu
Tue Nov 20 21:30:38 UTC 2018


Yes, the proposal is to document what the decision making process is (who
gets to decide, where is the decision made, where are decisions
documented/archived).

Yes, the mailing list (until we switch to Discourse ;p ) is the final place
for 'closure' = decision finalizing and archiving.

On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:03 PM Matt Germonprez <germonprez at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi Georg and all,
>
> Thanks for discussing this at today's weekly hangout... sorry I couldn't
> make it. From my reading of your summary, it sounds like things largely
> stay as they are in the CHAOSS project but relying on the mail list for
> 'closure' more so than the weekly meetings. Is this right?
>
> I do think that there are good points that has been raised in all of this
> -- to not overly complicate a process such that it gets in the way of doing
> good CHAOSS work and maintaining transparency in any decision-making
> process.
>
> Matt
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 12:39 PM Emma Irwin <eirwin at mozilla.com> wrote:
>
>> I am not sure I understand your point.  You feel like CHAOSS is like
>> Debian?
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 10:37 AM dmg <dmg at uvic.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 10:31 AM Emma Irwin <eirwin at mozilla.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Documentation of who makes decisions, their role(s), and the process
>>> they follow is half the battle to gaining trust, and increased
>>> participation in decision-making.   Most of the time people are not
>>> interested in challenging, but they do want to be consulted.  This is a
>>> great talk from Rust on that topic.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Suggest never saying 'that's how most open source projects' do things,
>>> when referencing governance discussions.
>>>
>>> I suggest you go count the number of packages in debian, count the
>>> number of projects that they belong to and then find how many of them
>>> have a decision process. I suggest you do random sampling, since the
>>> number is large (reach a certain level of confidence, say 90% +/-10%
>>> error).
>>>
>>> you will find most open source (at least in debian) is built by 1 or 2
>>> developers who make all the decisions without a process in place.
>>>
>>> >
>>> > On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 10:16 AM dmg <dmg at turingmachine.org> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> > I don't think this has always being the case, but I would say
>>> >> > that
>>> >> > usually people argue in favor or against, and propose different
>>> >> > decisions, in the mailing list, and then during the calls,
>>> >> > consensus
>>> >> > areas are explored until a decision is perceived to have
>>> >> > consensus. But
>>> >> > other people who has participated in these processes may say too
>>> >> > if
>>> >> > this matches their experience.
>>> >>
>>> >> hi Jesus
>>> >>
>>> >> with all due respect, I think most decisions are not
>>> >> reached. Simply, the people who are in charge of them
>>> >> enact them according to the input of others.
>>> >>
>>> >> In other words: the doers control what gets done and how, with the
>>> >> possibility that they take into
>>> >> consideration the input of others.
>>> >>
>>> >> there have been some decisions (few) that require a vote of the
>>> >> board. But in general,
>>> >> we have silent consent.
>>> >>
>>> >> I think this is perfectly fine. It is just the way that most open
>>> >> source projects work.
>>> >>
>>> >> perhaps at some point, the board might get the ability to veto
>>> >> actions by CHAOSS members via a majority
>>> >> vote.
>>> >>
>>> >> > Up to now, my feeling is this worked well. But maybe it is not
>>> >> > scaling
>>> >> > up as we have more people involved in general, people active in
>>> >> > working
>>> >> > groups, the set of people attending all calls, and participating
>>> >> > in all
>>> >> > mailing lists, is getting shorter and shorter (as a fraction of
>>> >> > the
>>> >> > total people involved in CHAOSS as a whole).
>>> >>
>>> >> I think we all have our opinions on what needs/should be done. But
>>> >> unless we are willing to do it,
>>> >> we should not get on the way of those doing it.
>>> >>
>>> >> There are situations where actions of CHAOSS members on behalf of
>>> >> CHAOSS might veer outside the goals of the project (which is
>>> >> subjective---I grant, personally
>>> >> I have see at least one instance of this happening). This might
>>> >> require a process to bring a vote to the validity of those
>>> >> actions.
>>> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> > * First, comment on your feelings about the decision making
>>> >> > process, in
>>> >> > this specific case and in general. If many of us think that we
>>> >> > need to
>>> >> > decide more formally on a process, we can work on having one. If
>>> >> > not,
>>> >> > we can stick to the current way.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > * Second, if somebody feels that in this specific case we don't
>>> >> > have a
>>> >> > consensus, we can either talk it more broadly, or raising it to
>>> >> > the
>>> >> > CHAOSS Board. We have a meeting in a week, so this would be
>>> >> > timely.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > What do you think?
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >> see above. I have addressed both points.
>>> >>
>>> >> >       Jesus.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > --
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Daniel M. German                  "Language alone protects us from
>>> >> the scariness
>>> >>                                    of things with no names.
>>> >>    Toni Morrison ->                Language alone is meditation. "
>>> >> http://turingmachine.org/
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__turingmachine.org_&d=DwMFaQ&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=P2SSJg6nDRqSw6MK6ZVW76NaDtv69G3wvyOnOxwzqv0&m=rQsLrAfgVo-T_i7Q_ghKUqZRsxTpLnMULOXJXXMQT48&s=wU3HIAmOqz4wOliifHu-6JOqLz2v6p0dtB024FyY1N8&e=>
>>> >> http://silvernegative.com/
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__silvernegative.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=P2SSJg6nDRqSw6MK6ZVW76NaDtv69G3wvyOnOxwzqv0&m=rQsLrAfgVo-T_i7Q_ghKUqZRsxTpLnMULOXJXXMQT48&s=LfalVDBmjxCJ4k1-84m3XCv--yjPR40-rW_lb2klQA8&e=>
>>> >> dmg (at) uvic (dot) ca
>>> >> replace (at) with @ and (dot) with .
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Emma Irwin (she/her)
>>> > Community Development
>>> > Open Innovation Team
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> --dmg
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Daniel M. German
>>> http://turingmachine.org
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__turingmachine.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=P2SSJg6nDRqSw6MK6ZVW76NaDtv69G3wvyOnOxwzqv0&m=rQsLrAfgVo-T_i7Q_ghKUqZRsxTpLnMULOXJXXMQT48&s=a5GjLOZ4VIj4pH79EDmTFDiPlWGBK32d24Hun4q5EvY&e=>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Emma Irwin (she/her)
>> Community Development
>> Open Innovation Team
>> _______________________________________________
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>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/chaoss
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.linuxfoundation.org_mailman_listinfo_chaoss&d=DwMFaQ&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=P2SSJg6nDRqSw6MK6ZVW76NaDtv69G3wvyOnOxwzqv0&m=rQsLrAfgVo-T_i7Q_ghKUqZRsxTpLnMULOXJXXMQT48&s=RCdLEkPOQi5a0fvuqz9SnYhS3UYoDZEQUn_sKC-Pdgc&e=>
>>
>
>
> --
> Mutual of Omaha Associate Professor
> Information Systems
> College of Information Science & Technology
> University of Nebraska Omaha
> he / him / his
> https://goo.gl/E87KdK
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__goo.gl_E87KdK&d=DwMFaQ&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=P2SSJg6nDRqSw6MK6ZVW76NaDtv69G3wvyOnOxwzqv0&m=rQsLrAfgVo-T_i7Q_ghKUqZRsxTpLnMULOXJXXMQT48&s=Meg22q9RxDfkacKZoq0Ck7nXECOR4_4xwZ8glFpUI-M&e=>
>
>

-- 
Georg J.P. Link
PhD Candidate
College of Information Science and Technology | PKI 367
University of Nebraska at Omaha | www.unomaha.edu
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