[Lightning-dev] BOLT11 In the World of Scriptless Scripts

Rusty Russell rusty at rustcorp.com.au
Mon Nov 5 06:09:01 UTC 2018

Anthony Towns <aj at erisian.com.au> writes:
> FWIW, I don't see reddit as a particularly viable "court"; there's
> no way for reddit to tell who's actually right in a dispute, eg if I
> say blockstream didn't send stickers I paid for, and blockstream says
> they did; ie there's no need for a sock puppet in the above scenario,
> blockstream can just say "according to our records you signed for
> delivery, stop whinging".

Well, in that case they can show a tracking number and Canada Post link?

We will eventually develop systems of arbitration better than "whining
on reddit/twitter", but that's where bitcoin was in its early days, so I
use it as a useful starting point to think about receipts when we lack
an intermediary.

> I think there's maybe four sorts of "proof of payment" people might
> desire:
>   0) no proof: "completely" deniable payments (donations?)
>   1) shared secret: ability to prove directly to the payee that an
>      invoice was paid (what we have now)

We also, importantly, have the ability to tie the receipt to the

>   2) signed payment: ability to prove to a different business unit of
>      the payee that payment was made, so that you can keep all the 
>      secrets in the payment-handling part, and have the service-delivery
>      part not be at risk for losing all your money

Hmm, this requires auditing the current commitment transaction I think
("see, I'm holding the money!").  I have to think about this some

>   3) third-party verifiable: so you can associate a payment with real
>      world identity information, and take them to court (or reddit) as a
>      contract dispute; needs PKI infrastructure so you can be confident
>      the pubkey maps to the real world people you think it does, etc

Yes, we're still missing that last mile between the merchant and the
nodeid.  There's a proposal to do this with DNS records, there's the
LetsEncrypt-style "serve this URL", but we also need something like
Certificate Transparency so I can reliably get old nodeids...

But the perfect is the enemy of the good, too.


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