<div dir="ltr">Hey everyone, <div><br></div><div>just for reference when I was new here (and did not understand the processes well enough) I proposed a similar idea (called LIP) in 2018 c.f.: <a href="https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2018-July/001367.html">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2018-July/001367.html</a> </div><div><br></div><div>I wonder what exactly has changed in the reasoning by roasbeef which I will repeat here: </div><pre style="white-space:pre-wrap;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><i>> We already have the equiv of improvement proposals: BOLTs. Historically</i></pre><pre style="white-space:pre-wrap;color:rgb(0,0,0)">><i style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"> new standardization documents are proposed initially as issues or PR's when </i><i>
</i></pre><pre style="white-space:pre-wrap;color:rgb(0,0,0)">><i style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"> ultimately accepted. Why do we need another repo? </i></pre><div><br></div><div>As far as I can tell there was always some form of (invisible?) barrier to participate in the BOLTs but there are also new BOLTs being offered:</div><div>* BOLT 12: <a href="https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/pull/798">https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/pull/798</a></div><div>* BOLT 14: <a href="https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/pull/780">https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/pull/780</a></div><div>and topics to be included like: </div><div>* dual funding</div><div>* splicing</div><div>* the examples given by Ryan<br></div><div><br></div><div>I don't see how a new repo would reduce that barrier - Actually I think it would even create more confusion as I for example would not know where something belongs. That being said I think all the points that are addressed in Ryan's mail could very well be formalized into BOLTs but maybe we just need to rethink the current process of the BOLTs to make it more accessible for new ideas to find their way into the BOLTs? One thing that I can say from answering lightning-network questions on stackexchange is that it would certainly help if the BOLTs where referenced  on lightning.network web page and in the whitepaper as the place to be if one wants to learn about the Lightning Network</div><div><br></div><div>with kind regards Rene </div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 4:10 PM Ryan Gentry via Lightning-dev <<a href="mailto:lightning-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">lightning-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><span id="gmail-m_-1849960730283967944gmail-docs-internal-guid-096f3c98-7fff-fd40-106a-149508e6f6f8"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Hi all,</span></p><br><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">The recent thread around zero-conf channels [1] provides an opportunity to discuss how the BOLT process handles features and best practices that arise in the wild vs. originating within the process itself. Zero-conf channels are one of many LN innovations on the app layer that have struggled to make their way into the spec. John Carvalho and Bitrefill launched Turbo channels in April 2019 [2], Breez posted their solution to the mailing list for feedback in August 2020 [3], and we know at least ACINQ and Muun (amongst others) have their own implementations. In an ideal world there would be a descriptive design document that the app layer implementers had collaborated on over the years that the spec group could then pick up and merge into the BOLTs now that the feature is deemed spec-worthy.</span></p><br><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Over the last couple of months, we have discussed the idea of adding a BIP-style process (bLIPs? SPARKs? [4]) on top of the BOLTs with various members of the community, and have received positive feedback from both app layer and protocol devs. This would not affect the existing BOLT process at all, but simply add a place for app layer best practices to be succinctly described and organized, especially those that require coordination. These features are being built outside of the BOLT process today anyways, so ideally a bLIP process would bring them into the fold instead of leaving them buried in old ML posts or not documented at all.</span></p><br><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Some potential bLIP ideas that people have mentioned include: each lnurl variant, on-the-fly channel opens, AMP, dynamic commitments, podcast payment metadata, p2p messaging formats, new pathfinding heuristics, remote node connection standards, etc.</span></p><br><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">If the community is interested in moving forward, we've started a branch [5] describing such a process. It's based on BIP-0002, so not trying to reinvent any wheels. It would be great to have developers from various implementations and from the broader app layer ecosystem volunteer to be listed as editors (basically the same role as in the BIPs). </span></p><br><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!</span></p><br><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Best,</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><br></span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Ryan</span></p><br><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">[1] </span><a href="https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2021-June/003074.html" style="text-decoration-line:none" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;text-decoration-line:underline;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2021-June/003074.html</span></a></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">[2] <a href="https://www.coindesk.com/bitrefills-thor-turbo-lets-you-get-started-with-bitcoins-lightning-faster" target="_blank">https://www.coindesk.com/bitrefills-thor-turbo-lets-you-get-started-with-bitcoins-lightning-faster</a></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">[3] <a href="https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2020-August/002780.html" target="_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2020-August/002780.html</a></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">[4] bLIP = Bitcoin Lightning Improvement Proposal and SPARK = Standardization of Protocols at the Request of the Kommunity (h/t fiatjaf)</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">[5] <a href="https://github.com/ryanthegentry/lightning-rfc/blob/blip-0001/blips/blip-0001.mediawiki" target="_blank">https://github.com/ryanthegentry/lightning-rfc/blob/blip-0001/blips/blip-0001.mediawiki</a></span></p></span><img src="https://t.sidekickopen45.com/s3t/o/5/f18dQhb0S7n28bNSM3W7lYjYM1jkhdLW1_k-L-1qZM43W3s0v_y1hB0HZF2sS9t4rFFXf99vV1g03?si=8000000004210015&pi=e17ae89a-4e0a-453f-a5b9-171cbee0a775" alt="" style="display: none;" height="1" width="1"><div></div></div>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><a href="https://www.rene-pickhardt.de" target="_blank">https://www.rene-pickhardt.de</a></div></div></div></div></div></div>