[lsb-discuss] Unofficial LSB Collab Summit session minutes (2012-04-04)

R P Herrold herrold at owlriver.com
Thu Apr 5 14:09:15 UTC 2012

LSB face to face and teleconference
SPECIAL Collab Summit edition

Wednesday, 04 Apr 2012 @noon to 1825, US ET

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 	gobby -j lsb-temp.pmman.net:6522 with passwd: LSB

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prior meetbot minutes:

THIS meeting's meetbot minutes:
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in the form : name (organization)  [irc_nick]
In the room:
Jeff Licquia (LF)  licquia 
Alexey Khoroshilov (ISPRAS)  Alexey 
Robert Schweikert (SuSE)  robjo 
Darren Davis (SuSE) 
Glen Petrie (Epson)

On the phone:
Denis Silakov (ROSA Labs)  denis_silakov
Russ Herrold (Owl River)  orc_emac
Rick Troth (Velocity Software) rickt
Stew Benedict (LF)  stewb

Gobby only (part time):
Mats Wichmann (Intel)  mwichmann

Posted Agenda:

   (all times are US West Coast time)
Times is 'soft' -- we are well willing to run under or over

9:00am - 10:00am 	LSB 5.0: Modularization
10:00am - 11:00am 	LSB 5.0: New Technology
11:30am - 12:30pm 	LSB 5.0: Uplifts
2:00pm - 3:00pm 	LSB: New features, enhancements, other
   work (not strictly 5.0-related)
3:00pm - 4:00pm 	Release schedule for future updates
4:30pm - 5:30pm 	Infrastructure status and recovery

New business:

Meeting opens at noon with:

Intro remarks by Jeff

-  Modularization

Hand over to Robert, for Modularization

Some minor changes, but follow prior practices as to naming 
(with 'normalization' to a consistent '^lsb-' prefix) to the 
extent possible.  This is a '5.0' feature, and as such, there 
is an opportunity to 'clean up' ad hoc prior naming choices.

Having the ability at the CLI to query capabilities is a base 

Side note: there were images in the mailing list post, which 
are broken on the wiki at the moment; this is known and will 
be fixed at the wiki by Jeff.  The email images are in the 
pipermail archive at: [1] so that one may see the full email

Thinking it through, putting sub-modules under modules is 
probably ill advised and overly ornate.

Alexi notes that there are renamings, compared to the existing 
database names, and so some transitional support may be 

Robert: LSB 5.0 will be, by definition, incompatible with the 
prior versions, and so it makes sense to make a clean break, 
and affirmatively drop some prior names and compatability 

Mats raises a implementation detail concern about transition, 
that versioning be watched with some care; Robert replies that 
there will cannot be a clean transition on the results from 
running: lsb-release as the format presenty vari8es; going 
forward, there will be a change to clean this up, and come to 
a versioned and consistent reply enumerating 'capabilities. 
see: [2]

Glen notes: imaging, rather than printing, may be a sensible 
nomenclature change, as the printing working group has 
identified a broader need -- scanning (SANE), picture type 
images, ... and so: lsb-imaging

Russ mentions, perhaps: lsb-graphics as a meta-class 
description, encompassing printing, and images, and scanning; 
the form of physicality: rendering vs. delivery is another 
axis for differentiation [Mats notes: lsb-graphics has a 
historical meaning, fwiw - was the book for the part beyond 
core (mainly xlibs) until subsumed into larger lsb-desktop 
@LSB 3.1]

Takeaway:  lsb-imaging as a module, or such and sub-module 

Decision:  module rename: lsb-imaging, it is (formerly 
lsb-printing was proposed)

editorial question: XML, or Xml, or xml, or ... ?

Also, an xml instance that carries a dtd is a 'language' with 
a thing that has a "grammar that might be 'validated'" Robert 
notes XML uses XSLT as its programming language ... 
compilation is possible with _some_ languages (example is: 

Jeff mentions a possible top level module <sub-module to ...?> 
'lsb-data' for representational matter; Russ points that 
historically we have stayed away from data representation 
format specification.  Also mentioned are the ECMA 'odbc' 
spec, and the various SQL specs and variants by Russ; Robert 
does not see that the LSB has a role to help in this space

Desktop seems to carry lots of widget kits in current practice 
(motif, Qt, Gtk, ...), servers want none, and  small device 
have a divide to try to limit bloat using just one (Webkit, 
Geckko, and friends)

Robert wraps up with a review of the options from [2].  A 
Distribution may add more, but an ISV (and a Distribution as a 
consumer ISV) may rely on what is specified by the LSB to be 
present as a minimum.  Alexi notes that there is a option 
behaviour in the ''version'' option, and that module 
enumeratin is colon separated, but the web page are not 
related to what the navigator presently provides ... Robert 
re-iterates that 5.0 will present the opportunity to clean 
this up; Jeff characterises it as a ''reconcilement'' process 
in the '-p' option.

Action item: Robert will update as the design proposal 
requires, and send notice to the mailing list

Trial use a a module is presently empty, and so omitted ... 
also, not conforming to a trial use module is NOT a problem to 
prevent LSB certification.

Robert recognised for good work, under a short time frame -- 

Time mark is 10:13 US PDT and modularization topic discussion 

- New Technology

Proposed additions
(screen scrape PRIOR to edits at the Collab Summit 04 Apr 

Add Gtk+ 3
Replace the deprecated Gtk+ 2 toolkit (if it will be 

Add Python 3
Replace the deprecated Python 2 (if it will be deprecated)

Add DBus
DBus is well established and widely used

Add Sane
Sane is needed by device manufacturers to support 
multifunction devices in an LSB compliant way

MPI is important in certain industries.

Add ncursesw
Internationalization is important.

Add curl
curl is widely used by many open source applications

Add libxslt
XML is used in many applications

Add libtiff
tiff is an image format that has been around for a long time.

Add XDG Autostart
XDG is an important cross toolkit standard

Add languages
Is there a need to add additional languages to the LSB?

Add multimedia components
Is there a need to add additional multimedia components to the 

Add X extensions
Is there a need to add additional X extensions to the LSB?

Many X apps are starting to use XCB; should we accomodate 
those apps?

Jeff runs through the early adopter nature of the 
developmental distributions (which tend to be 'community 
driven') rather than 'enterprise' driven.  He expresses a 
desire to move closer to, or at least add a path through 
'trial use' so that an enterprise distribution (which tend to 
be commercial) may anticipate what is likely to be coming. 
Russ mentions: axis of analysis of small devices, and the fact 
that commercial vendors have the mass to ship hardware, but 
that the community seems to lag here but still ends up blowing 
in new operating systems (in hardware space, the ARM Raspberry 
Pi is somewhat of an exception about to burst onto the scene, 
seemingly with a community distribution (Fedora 17); but see 
prior, DD-WRT, Pogoplug, Android chassis, and iPhone chassis). 
Mats notes that a switch to focus on, or even just support, 
small devices would take a lot of thought (see "lots of 
widget" comment above). Some small devices don't use either 
gtk or qt, e.g. the EFL-based ones.

Discussion of procedural matters

Glen speaks briefly as to sub-module: lsb-scan which would 
hold SANE, and other image acquisition methods

See the wiki page for most accurate update of in/out 

Russ expresses concern about ncursesw dragging in lots; Robert 
replies: hit in 5, and determine _where_ it goes (core, or in 
a module, down the road)

Add Gtk+ 3:  Will be implemented in LSB 5.0
Add Python 3: Will be implemented in LSB 5.0; likely to be 
Add DBus:  Will be implemented in LSB 5.0
Add Sane:  Will be implemented in LSB 5.0
Add MPI:  Defer
Add ncursesw:  Will be implemented in 5.0; may be a discussion 
about location (core vs. elsewhere). Note: logical to include 
ncursesw where ncurses is - should the latter be moved from 
Add curl:  Defer

Break at: 10:59 for 15 min, after 'curl'

Denis points out that there is a known implementation problem 
in one distribution with 'tiff' [4], orthogonal as to how it 
is implemented, if included at LSB 5.0

XDG Autostart:  Defer, but the attendees lean to: Discard

multimedia components: Defer ... paging Admiral Ackbar for an 

Balance summary after curl:

Add libxslt: Will be implemented in LSB 5.0
Add libtiff: Will be implemented in LSB 5.0
Add XDG Autostart: Defer (discard?)
Add languages: Defer any additional languages
Add multimedia components: Defer
Add X extensions: Defer
Add XCB: Will be included in LSB 5.0

Add systemd: Trial use, Will be included in LSB 5.0

Jeff mentions:

Robert proposes it continue as a Trial Use addition

Russ notes:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Systemd  Socket 
and the troubling language:"This is similar in function to 
inetd and some, but not all, services coded to work with inetd 
will work with socket activation"
Revisting the LSB SysV headers in that context may be useful

The conversation continues to a review of the other 
'deprecation and drop' matter on that page:

Discussion of 'sendmail' ... Russ suggests the deprecation 
(drop is premature), and opening a re-examination of LSB 
mandated 'notification interfaces'

Lunch break at: 12:34; resume at 14:00 local

Mats requests:  1. "Adds" (on uplift page) should have 
estimate and priority column, and "Uplifts" should add 
priority column. Resources known to be limited :(   2. It 
would be easier to maintain this table if it were generated, 
rather than edited in wiki - tables awkward there.  3. For 
things agreed, please create bugs/feature-requests

[[ Jeff: Agree, but not necessarily in real-time. Mats: no 
problem with that, later is fine]]

Will just talk about the next three topics in the afternoon 
session, without concern for "1 hour" time slots.  Will 
probably get done early.

Topic: enhancements and requests for things not tied to 5.0.

Jeff: LSB gcc plugin.  May pursue that as an SDK update.  Not 
intended to replace the current wrappers.

Stew: app checker more friendly for native apps; that project 
should be continued.

Jeff: LANANA.  LSB might take that over completely.  Will be 
talks between LF sysadmins and LANANA people to do that.  The 
major-minor device number registry may get supplanted; Stew 
reports that Fedora does something weird with loopback block 
device major-minor numbers.

Stew: feature request for Dist Checker: regenerate reports for 
old runs that use more current problem_db.  Jeff: ties into 
something that isn't much of a release thing, but having an 
audit toolkit that regenerates reports, maybe edits 
problem_db, other things.

Jeff: release every three months, or more often depending on 
event schedules.  Will coordinate with LF management if some 
event dictates that a release should be done sooner.

Jeff: FHS 3.0 needs restarting, will start with draft 2 next 


New infra is mostly in place; some missing bits here and 
there.  Now Puppet-based, to make it easier for others to 

New Web home; www.linuxbase.org.  We've put a bunch of 
restored stuff there, but no grand plans for the rest of the 
site.  Could do some kind of content management thing 
(Drupal/Joomla), or turn it into a wiki.  Jeff: 
readthedocs.org looks intriguing.  Stew: user directories? 
(like ~stewb)  Jeff: might be difficult for people w/o shell 
access.  Stew: could use version control.  Might not fit so 
well with, say, distro changes pages.   Stew is managing from 
cron; could be fitted into Puppet, possibly.

Call ends at 3:25 pm.

Weekly Bug triage:
irc-only #lsb-meeting at freenode.net
Thurs at 10:00 Eastern
Bugzilla stats as of 04 Apr:
Open bugs: 496 (495 assigned, 1 needinfo). 500 open last week.
New last 90 days: 163, last 30: 42, closed last 90 days: 101, 
last 30: 53
Changed this week: 4, last week: 47

Bugs that are assigned but have no milestone: 277
Rollup bugs: 23

last week's bug triage minutes:


Next meeting:
14 Apr 2012 11:00 to noon, US ET

gobby unofficial minutes are open for edit for at least 15 min 
after each call, and then issued into the mailing list

[1] http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lsb-discuss/2012-March/007143.html
[2] http://refspecs.linuxfoundation.org/LSB_4.1.0/LSB-Core-generic/LSB-Core-generic/lsbrelease.html
[3] https://wiki.linuxfoundation.org/en/Uplift_Target
[4] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/tiff/+bug/456257

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