[lsb-discuss] Unofficial LSB Collab Summit session minutes (2012-04-04)
R P Herrold
herrold at owlriver.com
Thu Apr 5 14:09:15 UTC 2012
LSB face to face and teleconference
SPECIAL Collab Summit edition
Wednesday, 04 Apr 2012 @noon to 1825, US ET
(605) 715-4920 Access Code: 512468
gobby -j lsb-temp.pmman.net:6522 with passwd: LSB
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In the room:
Jeff Licquia (LF) licquia
Alexey Khoroshilov (ISPRAS) Alexey
Robert Schweikert (SuSE) robjo
Darren Davis (SuSE)
Glen Petrie (Epson)
On the phone:
Denis Silakov (ROSA Labs) denis_silakov
Russ Herrold (Owl River) orc_emac
Rick Troth (Velocity Software) rickt
Stew Benedict (LF) stewb
Gobby only (part time):
Mats Wichmann (Intel) mwichmann
(all times are US West Coast time)
Times is 'soft' -- we are well willing to run under or over
9:00am - 10:00am LSB 5.0: Modularization
10:00am - 11:00am LSB 5.0: New Technology
11:30am - 12:30pm LSB 5.0: Uplifts
2:00pm - 3:00pm LSB: New features, enhancements, other
work (not strictly 5.0-related)
3:00pm - 4:00pm Release schedule for future updates
4:30pm - 5:30pm Infrastructure status and recovery
Meeting opens at noon with:
Intro remarks by Jeff
Hand over to Robert, for Modularization
Some minor changes, but follow prior practices as to naming
(with 'normalization' to a consistent '^lsb-' prefix) to the
extent possible. This is a '5.0' feature, and as such, there
is an opportunity to 'clean up' ad hoc prior naming choices.
Having the ability at the CLI to query capabilities is a base
Side note: there were images in the mailing list post, which
are broken on the wiki at the moment; this is known and will
be fixed at the wiki by Jeff. The email images are in the
pipermail archive at:  so that one may see the full email
Thinking it through, putting sub-modules under modules is
probably ill advised and overly ornate.
Alexi notes that there are renamings, compared to the existing
database names, and so some transitional support may be
Robert: LSB 5.0 will be, by definition, incompatible with the
prior versions, and so it makes sense to make a clean break,
and affirmatively drop some prior names and compatability
Mats raises a implementation detail concern about transition,
that versioning be watched with some care; Robert replies that
there will cannot be a clean transition on the results from
running: lsb-release as the format presenty vari8es; going
forward, there will be a change to clean this up, and come to
a versioned and consistent reply enumerating 'capabilities.
Glen notes: imaging, rather than printing, may be a sensible
nomenclature change, as the printing working group has
identified a broader need -- scanning (SANE), picture type
images, ... and so: lsb-imaging
Russ mentions, perhaps: lsb-graphics as a meta-class
description, encompassing printing, and images, and scanning;
the form of physicality: rendering vs. delivery is another
axis for differentiation [Mats notes: lsb-graphics has a
historical meaning, fwiw - was the book for the part beyond
core (mainly xlibs) until subsumed into larger lsb-desktop
Takeaway: lsb-imaging as a module, or such and sub-module
Decision: module rename: lsb-imaging, it is (formerly
lsb-printing was proposed)
editorial question: XML, or Xml, or xml, or ... ?
Also, an xml instance that carries a dtd is a 'language' with
a thing that has a "grammar that might be 'validated'" Robert
notes XML uses XSLT as its programming language ...
compilation is possible with _some_ languages (example is:
Jeff mentions a possible top level module <sub-module to ...?>
'lsb-data' for representational matter; Russ points that
historically we have stayed away from data representation
format specification. Also mentioned are the ECMA 'odbc'
spec, and the various SQL specs and variants by Russ; Robert
does not see that the LSB has a role to help in this space
Desktop seems to carry lots of widget kits in current practice
(motif, Qt, Gtk, ...), servers want none, and small device
have a divide to try to limit bloat using just one (Webkit,
Geckko, and friends)
Robert wraps up with a review of the options from . A
Distribution may add more, but an ISV (and a Distribution as a
consumer ISV) may rely on what is specified by the LSB to be
present as a minimum. Alexi notes that there is a option
behaviour in the ''version'' option, and that module
enumeratin is colon separated, but the web page are not
related to what the navigator presently provides ... Robert
re-iterates that 5.0 will present the opportunity to clean
this up; Jeff characterises it as a ''reconcilement'' process
in the '-p' option.
Action item: Robert will update as the design proposal
requires, and send notice to the mailing list
Trial use a a module is presently empty, and so omitted ...
also, not conforming to a trial use module is NOT a problem to
prevent LSB certification.
Robert recognised for good work, under a short time frame --
Time mark is 10:13 US PDT and modularization topic discussion
- New Technology
(screen scrape PRIOR to edits at the Collab Summit 04 Apr
Add Gtk+ 3
Replace the deprecated Gtk+ 2 toolkit (if it will be
Add Python 3
Replace the deprecated Python 2 (if it will be deprecated)
DBus is well established and widely used
Sane is needed by device manufacturers to support
multifunction devices in an LSB compliant way
MPI is important in certain industries.
Internationalization is important.
curl is widely used by many open source applications
XML is used in many applications
tiff is an image format that has been around for a long time.
Add XDG Autostart
XDG is an important cross toolkit standard
Is there a need to add additional languages to the LSB?
Add multimedia components
Is there a need to add additional multimedia components to the
Add X extensions
Is there a need to add additional X extensions to the LSB?
Many X apps are starting to use XCB; should we accomodate
Jeff runs through the early adopter nature of the
developmental distributions (which tend to be 'community
driven') rather than 'enterprise' driven. He expresses a
desire to move closer to, or at least add a path through
'trial use' so that an enterprise distribution (which tend to
be commercial) may anticipate what is likely to be coming.
Russ mentions: axis of analysis of small devices, and the fact
that commercial vendors have the mass to ship hardware, but
that the community seems to lag here but still ends up blowing
in new operating systems (in hardware space, the ARM Raspberry
Pi is somewhat of an exception about to burst onto the scene,
seemingly with a community distribution (Fedora 17); but see
prior, DD-WRT, Pogoplug, Android chassis, and iPhone chassis).
Mats notes that a switch to focus on, or even just support,
small devices would take a lot of thought (see "lots of
widget" comment above). Some small devices don't use either
gtk or qt, e.g. the EFL-based ones.
Discussion of procedural matters
Glen speaks briefly as to sub-module: lsb-scan which would
hold SANE, and other image acquisition methods
See the wiki page for most accurate update of in/out
Russ expresses concern about ncursesw dragging in lots; Robert
replies: hit in 5, and determine _where_ it goes (core, or in
a module, down the road)
Add Gtk+ 3: Will be implemented in LSB 5.0
Add Python 3: Will be implemented in LSB 5.0; likely to be
Add DBus: Will be implemented in LSB 5.0
Add Sane: Will be implemented in LSB 5.0
Add MPI: Defer
Add ncursesw: Will be implemented in 5.0; may be a discussion
about location (core vs. elsewhere). Note: logical to include
ncursesw where ncurses is - should the latter be moved from
Add curl: Defer
Break at: 10:59 for 15 min, after 'curl'
Denis points out that there is a known implementation problem
in one distribution with 'tiff' , orthogonal as to how it
is implemented, if included at LSB 5.0
XDG Autostart: Defer, but the attendees lean to: Discard
multimedia components: Defer ... paging Admiral Ackbar for an
Balance summary after curl:
Add libxslt: Will be implemented in LSB 5.0
Add libtiff: Will be implemented in LSB 5.0
Add XDG Autostart: Defer (discard?)
Add languages: Defer any additional languages
Add multimedia components: Defer
Add X extensions: Defer
Add XCB: Will be included in LSB 5.0
Add systemd: Trial use, Will be included in LSB 5.0
Robert proposes it continue as a Trial Use addition
and the troubling language:"This is similar in function to
inetd and some, but not all, services coded to work with inetd
will work with socket activation"
Revisting the LSB SysV headers in that context may be useful
The conversation continues to a review of the other
'deprecation and drop' matter on that page:
Discussion of 'sendmail' ... Russ suggests the deprecation
(drop is premature), and opening a re-examination of LSB
mandated 'notification interfaces'
Lunch break at: 12:34; resume at 14:00 local
Mats requests: 1. "Adds" (on uplift page) should have
estimate and priority column, and "Uplifts" should add
priority column. Resources known to be limited :( 2. It
would be easier to maintain this table if it were generated,
rather than edited in wiki - tables awkward there. 3. For
things agreed, please create bugs/feature-requests
[[ Jeff: Agree, but not necessarily in real-time. Mats: no
problem with that, later is fine]]
Will just talk about the next three topics in the afternoon
session, without concern for "1 hour" time slots. Will
probably get done early.
Topic: enhancements and requests for things not tied to 5.0.
Jeff: LSB gcc plugin. May pursue that as an SDK update. Not
intended to replace the current wrappers.
Stew: app checker more friendly for native apps; that project
should be continued.
Jeff: LANANA. LSB might take that over completely. Will be
talks between LF sysadmins and LANANA people to do that. The
major-minor device number registry may get supplanted; Stew
reports that Fedora does something weird with loopback block
device major-minor numbers.
Stew: feature request for Dist Checker: regenerate reports for
old runs that use more current problem_db. Jeff: ties into
something that isn't much of a release thing, but having an
audit toolkit that regenerates reports, maybe edits
problem_db, other things.
Jeff: release every three months, or more often depending on
event schedules. Will coordinate with LF management if some
event dictates that a release should be done sooner.
Jeff: FHS 3.0 needs restarting, will start with draft 2 next
New infra is mostly in place; some missing bits here and
there. Now Puppet-based, to make it easier for others to
New Web home; www.linuxbase.org. We've put a bunch of
restored stuff there, but no grand plans for the rest of the
site. Could do some kind of content management thing
(Drupal/Joomla), or turn it into a wiki. Jeff:
readthedocs.org looks intriguing. Stew: user directories?
(like ~stewb) Jeff: might be difficult for people w/o shell
access. Stew: could use version control. Might not fit so
well with, say, distro changes pages. Stew is managing from
cron; could be fitted into Puppet, possibly.
Call ends at 3:25 pm.
Weekly Bug triage:
irc-only #lsb-meeting at freenode.net
Thurs at 10:00 Eastern
Bugzilla stats as of 04 Apr:
Open bugs: 496 (495 assigned, 1 needinfo). 500 open last week.
New last 90 days: 163, last 30: 42, closed last 90 days: 101,
last 30: 53
Changed this week: 4, last week: 47
Bugs that are assigned but have no milestone: 277
Rollup bugs: 23
last week's bug triage minutes:
14 Apr 2012 11:00 to noon, US ET
gobby unofficial minutes are open for edit for at least 15 min
after each call, and then issued into the mailing list
This document: LSB minutes 20120404.txt
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